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PREGAME: The Tigers get back at if after last night’s tough loss. Fortunately, this team does seem to have a short memory for these types of things. Justin Verlander will do his best to give the team the same kind of chance that Kenny Rogers did last night. Verlander has been awesome his last 4 starts with 3 runs allowed in 28 2/3 innings and a 26:6 K/BB ratio. But in his last 5 starts against the Tribe dating back to last year they’ve hung at least 7 runs on him in 3 of those starts.
Jake Westbrook takes the ball for Cleveland tonight. In his last start against Detroit he allowed just 7 baserunners and no runs over 8 innings. It was one of the few starts where the Tigers couldn’t get to him.
Marcus Thames is in the lineup playing left field tonight while Timo is on the bench. Ramon Santiago starts again at shortstop with Carlos Guillen playing first.
Game Time 7:05
DET @ CLE, Tuesday, September 18, 2007 Game Preview - Baseball-Reference.com
POSTGAME: Not much to figure out in this one. Tigers - lots of hits and all but one were singles. There were clutch hits, but with the singles they needed to string together a bunch. The Indians, a few hits and all homers 15 rows back. Justin Verlander was living at the belt all day, he simply couldn’t find the bottom of the zone and the balls got tatoo’d.
{ 180 comments… read them below or add one }
Last night still hurts.
I had a dream Verlander threw another no-hitter tonight.
Patient: Doctor, last night’s loss still hurts. What can I take to ease the pain?
Doctor: Nothing. You’re gonna just have to suffer, friend.
Patient: Nothing?
Doctor: Nothing.
Patient: Is there anything that will ease the pain?
Doctor: Well, yes… but…
Patient: But what?
Doctor: I don’t want to give you false hope.
Patient: But what doctor!!
Doctor: Well, alright. Since you insist. Everytime the Tigers win and the Yankees lose you’ll feel better. After about three or four days of this precise elixir, you won’t feel any pain at all.
Snake oil…
I thought Carlos had bad knees. Why was he trying to steal? I mean I know why but every break we get is bad. I’m still watching but I’m still so depressed from yesterday.
Romon Santiago to the rescue. 1-0 Tigers nice seeing eye single Romon.
And Justin gives it right back. No no-no tonight.
hmmmm well nice lead while we had it. Garko 19th of the year 1-1. Come on Verlander!!!!!
Well, if we lose this game at least then we don’t have to hope anymore.
Tigers cant think that they arent playing for anything. We know that we arent going the playoffs but we need to play for that nice 90+ win mark. They guys cant give it up!!!! Come on Tigers!!!
Guillen. ARGH.
This is a bit messy…
Pudge. ARGH.
Patient: It sounds as if the cure is worse than the disease, doc.
Doctor: In some respects, yes it is.
Patient: *sigh*. Ok, gimme 4 days of Tiger wins and Yankee losses.
Doctor: As you wish.
Thames. YESH.
Santiago. YESSSSH.
Adam,
You are a day early, talk like a pirate day is tomorrow.
http://www.talklikeapirate.com/
That’s what you were referring to after Guillen’s and Pudge’s at bats, right?
Wow Romon is working into being important this game hehe. Kinda cool just hope that we can keep this lead this time around instead of giving them the game again……come on Verlander!!! Nail this one for us!!
Um. Those of you watching Gameday, where it says the Tigers lead 3-1, and that Magglio was out at home, it’s actually 4-1, and Magglio was safe. After that, Brandon Inge came up and was HBP, but then Granderson grounded out to second base.
Just wanted to let you know the truth.
And, once again, Verlander gives them right back.
OMG WTF, two hits and both of them are homeruns Verlander what are you thinking AGH!!! 4-4 in the Third. Wow unbeleivable and this is why we are not in the playoffs this season….
whashashhashshasahsfuaiosdfhswefwrgwefswefads
It’s not meant to be…
Well that was a quick lead.
Horrible pitch by JV, made worse by the horrible pitches before them that put 2 guys on.
This can’t be happening!
I’m done watching this one. I’ll check back later to see who won.
Verlander make the final out and runs off the field. I think i would do the same exact thing. I would be pissed off at myself and want to slam things in the dugout. Oh well whats done is done. Now we have to make sure we can come right back and get back on top no matter if its by 1 run or more. Just get back out there and start hitting.
Interesting strategy. 4-1 lead, lets walk the first 2 to get to Travis Hafner. 4 Runs on 2 hits, nice.
Patient: Doc, tonight is starting to hurt too.
Doctor: Dunno what to tell you… Try turning on the Lions game.
Way to go Sheffield
Sheff what are you doing making a rookie mistake you are already in Scoring postion come on we are playing like amateurs!!!!! This is rediculous……
Oh my goodness. How many times can we get thrown out at third base on a ground ball to shortstop????
At what point does aggressiveness become sheer stupidity?
Second guy in two nights where guy is thrown out at 3rd on routine grounder to short. I swear to god, this team has the lowest baseball i.q. of a contender i’ve ever watched.
They know this isn’t the Special Olympics,right?
This team is mentally done
Stephen,
If memory serves, Timo Perez also was thrown out at third on a routine groudner to short in the last game of the Minny series. That would make three straight games.
Just sayin’ is all…
Thanks for giving them a run Gary.
Harry Doyle: “And so Hiroshi ‘Kamikaze’ Tanaka, recently of the Tokyo Giants, knocks himself cold for the second time this week. Maybe in Japan that’s actually better than catching the ball. Personally, I think he’s just trying to get out of the lineup.”
Team is too agressive tonight as well. The Sheff mistake, the Guillen CS..
You can not stop Ramon Santiago, you can only hope to contain him.
Ten to three hit ratio for the Tigers and yet this game is tied. How pathetic is this. Verlander is awesome and is an ace but I knew he couldnt keep up these great starts this long hes just too young still. He cant do everything for this team its literally impossible. Come on bats come alive these next few innings before Verlander is pulled in the 6th. And yes that is my guess he will be pulled either in the 6th or before the 6th.
Update: Good old Romon 3 for 3 with 3 RBIS, go Romon!! At least he can hit clutch tonight.
Why is it that on a bang bang play at home Romon doesnt get an RBI thats insane, stupid scorekeeper. Well some nice breaks for the tigs. Granderson is safe at first and Romon’s steal makes it to third. Come on Polly. Get that run in!!!!
I have to admit, it’s slightly less painful to blow a 3-run lead in the 3rd inning as opposed to 8th.
So, thanks for that, guys.
i stand corrected 4-4 Polly hits it back to the pitcher……….ugh the frustration keeps mounting, 14 hits only 4 runs……..
I think they’re mentally and emotionally exhausted, detached, whatever. I am just hoping that Magglio gets the batting title.
Is anyone going to be at the games this Friday the 21st and Monday the 24th? If so let’s meet up and wish each other a good winter.
Baseball is a fascinating game. 75% ability, 25% breaks. Unless you’re the Indians. Then it’s 40% ability, 60% breaks.
I’m not dissing it, though. There is something to that. I’m in awe. The Indians have some impressive vodoo going — the whole season. How does one team be on fortunate end of sooooooooo many breaks? Is there anything to this? This has to be the luckiest team I have ever watched. Three hits. Four runs. Tigers: 12 hits, RISP in every inning, 4 runs. The Tigers have to work five times as hard to produce one fifth the results.
At some point you gotta just tip your hat. This is most definately the luckiest team in the league.
TSmith: see 06 Tigers. We were pretty much this team last year.
You’re right. We got every break last year. And I remember going to the Jake and hearing the Cleveland fans complaining about injuries, bad breaks, etc. The teams’ fortunes got reversed this year.
How many home runs can these guys hit? Damn
wow.. I just checked the box scores and the Tigers have stranded 19 men in the last 6 innings. Somebody needs to step up in the clutch here.
I think Jo-boo is helping them hit the dingers.
That would be 6 home runs in less than two games for Cleveland and a big fat NONE for us. We scratch and claw and battle to put together an inning and Cleveland erases it on one pitch.
Is that luck? I dunno, but it sucks.
By the way, I’m rooting for Maggs to get the title. He will.
But in some ways, as ron as so aptly expressed, if Maggs wins the title, and Polly hits .345 this year (2nd or 3rd) and wins a Gold Glove, and Grandy has his historical Willy Mays, 20-20-20-20 year (also a potential Gold Glove), and the Tigers score close to 900 runs, and Verlander wins 19 games and contends for the Cy Young — all those accomplishments make this season extremely painful. the Tigers should be playing in October… but they won’t be. (As I type this Martinez hits a homer putting the Indians up by one — unbelievable. Four hits might win the game in which the Tigers pummeled Westbrook. You just gotta laugh.)
I’m sorry. I have to agree with ron here. This season has been a collosal disappointment.
hehe, Well like i said Verlander cant do it all(Martinez homers 5-4), and i think that Leyland has given it up and is going to leave Verlander out to dry tonite to rest the bullpen for tomorrows thumping by C.C. Well it was going ot be a good series tough sweep for the tigs to take. Like i said 90 win season is still within reach.
My God that ball was CRUSHED!!! 7-4 Indians WOWZA!!!!
Wow…
Well Verlander didn’t have much tonight.
Guitierez doesn’t even hit them that far in BP!
Joey the K, you may be right…and I’ll bet that they sacrificed a gigantic bowl of Kentucky Fried Chicken too.
i told ya that Verlander would be out in the 6th he didnt have it tonight and leyland left him in to get the lose as well. I would have said Verlander you look not great out there, lets take you out save you a lose and get in Grilli. But Jimmy left him in to hang him out to dry to rest the bullpen for tomorrows massacre when Nate gets out in the 3rd and CC sweeps us away from an already unreachable playoff WC.
And I bet you any money our bats will be silent the rest of the game as well…….This is not enjoyable unless you are a Cleveland fan…..
Well fwiw we torched CC his last start, and it happened to be a day game too.
Who cares about a 90 win season? I could care less. Nobody ever looks back and says… Wow! They won 90 that year. They were a good team. What accomplishment is a 90 win season?
Here is the difference between this extremely magical overachieving Indians team and the Tigers. The Tigers down three runs means a L. They cannot/will not come back on a three run deficit.
This team is demorlized. This team is simply crushed. They tried, but they only pushed thru four runs. This is just unbelievable. Unbelievable.
Yep. Well, I’ll be watching Gameday from the office tomorrow. I’m out of steam tonight. Thanks to fellow posters for making it somewhat more bearable. I had forgotten about JoBoo, that was funny.
Just in case there was any doubt. Yikes.
I have to admit, this season is a disappointment, because of the expectations that came with it, obviously. However, I would note that this team played meaningful games in September, and since we’ve seen some godawful teams in past years, that alone makes this season more of a success than we’re used to seeing. It’s a shame we’re wasting great seasons from Maggs, Polanco and Granderson, but this team is good, and will be good next year as well. That’s something that we should appreciate, after so many years of bad baseball in Detroit.
I tell you, every time I watch the Indians they are like the terminator, unstoppable, any mistake pitch is an automatic home run. I’ve never seen anything like it in all my years of watching baseball. If the Tigers are up 3, 5, it just doesn’t matter, you FEEL like its only a matter of time until they have the lead. Its as though some FORCE is at work.
Matt Underwood’s home run call drives me nuts… “GOONE TO SOUVENIR CITY”
Gahhh
Imagine if Rodney, Bondo, Sheff, Zoom and Rogers had been healthy.
Imagine if Monroe, Inge and Pudge had played a fraction of what they did last year.
Of course, imagine if we were A’s or Mariner fans. HA. The Mariners had their ‘magic’ year this year and look where they are.
Dan and Jim keep saying Verlander was tipping his pitches.
This season was magical for a few players, Granderson, Maggs, Polly, Verlander, Jones(reaching 300 saves), and even if its not as noteable Jiar Jurrjens. I put jurrjens in there because hes a gem that we found out can take pressure from being on an Playoff cailiber club. Unlike Vazquez and Miller Jiar pitched his young heart out this year and if hes not on the rotation next year and the inexperienced hardly any minor league ball Miller is in there, Ill be very dissappointed. Dont Rush Young Talent especially if they dont show it right away. (For example- Braves Brian McCann All star his first two full years in the majors. ~READY~ Joey Devine supposedly the next great closer for Atl. Gives up 3 Grandslams in his first 3 appearences ~NOT READY~)
The season on a whole was dissappointing because they let it slip back in August. The slide in July was fine but it just went on into August and got splits with two bad teams in Oak and TB. That was uncalled for and thats when the tigers fell. 2007 was a good year but not special or great. All they have to look forward to is 2008 and hopefully get to 90 wins so its not a total disaster.
Time for us to stage a comeback win. Even if for old times sake
Who’s to say the Tigers will have a good season next year? Their parallels to the White Sox are uncanny (save for the WS ring). The Sox were contenders last year right up until the final stretch…and wound up winning 90 games. Look where they are this year. And it’s not because they don’t have “talent” on their team. The Tigers could well be in the cellar next year. I’m not saying they will be, but it’s naive to think they will automatically be a winning team next year. This is what makes this season such a huge disappointment to me. The one bright spot is Ilitch is now committed to win. Let’s see how commited he is. We need to retool the folloiwng:
1. Third Baseman
2. Add another starting pitcher, say a # 2 guy.
3.
3. Bolster the bullpen. The Indian’s moves in the offseason were HUGE. The difference really, between where they finished last year and where they will finish this year.
4. LF
5. (This is just a pipe dream) Bobby Cox? Or somebody like him?
If DD and Ilitch aggressively fill these positions, we can improve the team.
T Smith,
I don’t think there are going to be any #2’s on the free agent market. Plus, its gonna take a stud prospect to swing a #2 via trade (wonder what the asking price for Sanatana would be).
I think the rotation is a strength. Lousy LF, 3B, 1B and C production and a lousy bullpen are our problems.
But T, it’s as easy to say we’ll be in the cellar next year as it will be that we will win 100 games. But I get your point and the comparisons to the CWS scare me too.
This year was a disapointment but I still think with all the problems we’ve had too it’s amazing we’re still even playing games that mean somthing this late in the season, ya know?
Inge, Pudge, bullpen whoever. I don’t think they were the biggest disapointments. I think the biggest disapointment this year was Leyland. Playing Cmo so long, Mesa, Neifi. You could have easily added Timo to that list if it weren’t the fact he’s playing so over his head right now/.
We’re stuck with Inge, there’s no getting around that.
The bullpen needs some change I think, Byrdak, Grilli, Durbin are horrible.
Getting a #2 starter isn’t gonna be easy. Out rotation is our strength when it’s healthy. That and JJJ could be a gem next year.
I agree with LF and that could be an easier thing to fix. Although would anyone really be surprised now with leyland if Timosity is our starter next year? We’ll be screaming bloody murder for months before Leyland realizes he’s garbage.
T Smith,
As much as agree with you I dont think that we will be like the Sox this year though the lines and paralllels are there. ilitch Is committed to winning but its up to DD to make the signings and trades. He signed Inge to a 3 year deal as much as I agree with you we need a 3B we wont get anyone. #2 pitcher in my eyes right now is Rogers(will sign one year deal with tigers forsure.) #3 is what we need like a Mulder or a Lilly, or Morris. #4 is Bonderman while #5 is a fight with Robertson/Jurrjens and as much as i hate to say it cause hes not ready is Miller.
We also need a new SS as Gullien will undoubtable go to 1B. im thinking Edgar Rentaria, Omar Vizquel or Uribe maybe???? someone but not Miguel hes to overrated and costs too much- you guys dont like the Sheff deal he will be just the same as Sheff.
1.New 3B - wont happen Grrr….
2.#3 dunno??? suggestions?
3.New SS - Rentaria, Omar, Uribe, someone else?? Romon, Guartinaino(Sp)AA Erie???
dunno what 2008 holds but we need to improve thats a known fact.
btw, everyone should take a look at the freeagent list. It’s thin fellas. Real thin.
Rentaria/Uribe/Vizquel? I’d rather take Santiago and save the money and enjoy some bunting.
I’m not saying the Tigers WILL be in the cellar — I’m just pointing out they may well be in the cellar. It’s not out of the realm of possiblity. And remember, the Sox didn’t do ANYTHING in the offseason. The Tigers cannot make the same mistake. They need to aggressively retool. They stood pat at trade deadline, and that was controversial — they need to retool and not hem and haw about it.
Also — I know there aren’t a lot of free agent pitchers available, but if there was ANY WAY WHATSOEVER of getting Santana (and I’m sure if the Twinkees have anything to say about it, it will never happen), then you go for it. Techically, Santana isn’t a free agent, right? I think it would have to be a trade. Anyway, how huge would that be? This team can score 900 runs a year. A solid rotation is the key.
Santana, Verlander, Rogers, Jurrgens, Bonderman…
Or something like it.
Rotation for 08:
Verlander (obviously)
Rogers (he’ll sign for one more)
Bonderman (meh, he’s alternating healthy years so..)
Robertson (not going to wow you, but not bad for a 4th guy)
JJJ? Miller? Free agent?
Why do people question Jair. My God, he’s an ace. (IMO)
It’d have to be a trade, and there is no way they’d trade him to us. No way. Not to a division rival, nuh uh. Not when they have him for one more year (a contract year btw) and Liriano comming back. They’re gonna contend next year and need him.
T,
I completely agree with the White Sox parallels and said exactly that in a post on this site about a month ago. We are in better shape than the Sox due to young starting pitching (even if you think Bondo is a waste), and better players up the middle (although if Guillen moves to first, that may be a different story).
I also agree with needing better production from 3B and C, since chances are they aren’t going anywhere. We clearly need an everyday LF, and a 1B or SS, depending on where Guillen plays next year.
There are arms in the minors to improve the bullpen, a guy like de la Cruz could be a big plus, and perhaps a free agent arm like Cordero would help tremendously. The rotation is in good shape and I really hope to see Jurrjens in there at #5 also. A modest free agent innings-eater would be ideal, but it’s such a thin free agent class everywhere but CF, that may be hard to come by.
You’re right, there is no guarantee the Tigers will be “good” next year, my point was that they have amassed a talented roster and a well-regarded front office that takes a long-term view and they SHOULD be competitive in most seasons for the next few years. That is a monumental improvement over what we’ve seen from this team in years prior, and I, for one, appreciate that despite the bitter taste this year will leave.
The Cardinals lost in 2004 with what many thought was the best team in baseball. They won in 2006. Maybe there are some parallels there, too.
Because Kathy he’s 21 and has had a handful of starts in the show. Which is an insanly small sample size to call someone an ace already. He also has health concerns now. He’s a kid with upside and a possible spot next year.
I would keep Santiago at SS and spend like crazy elsewhere. The guy is amazing on the field. And a power team could use a good bunter…
I have to also just reiterate… the Indians have 6 hits to the Tigers 12 hits and will win this ballgame. Totally pathetic. Totally pathetic.
T totally agree, I like Santiago only so much because he is SO CHEAP. Like you said man, spend that money saved elsewhere. *cough* AROD *cough*
Oh i absolutely agree with you on that one Jim.
Im a Braves fan and I want them to trade Rentaria for a proven arm because they desperately need one for a 1-2-3 punch. And Rentaria is the key. Tigers need a SS but already really have a average batting and A++ defensive SS so its not a need the Tigers absolutely need.
T Smith,
I would love to have Santana but to get him would cost us what the braves got Mark Texiera for which was 5 top of the line prospects. Id have to say Tata, Jurrjens, 2 mid level, and proabably either Miller or Maybin. Theres no way unless we want to mortage the farm for a year of Santana. But would be great!! lol
Rotation
Rogers, Verlander, #3, Bonderman, Robertson/Jurrjens
SS- Romon or Tony Giarratano 1B- Carlos Guillen
3B- Inge or would be great Glaus/Lowell that would be a miricle to sign him
C- Pudge or my dream- Jarrod Saltalamacchia
theres my take.
One thing that was becoming clear to me when both Indians & Tigers were struggling in August was that the Indians are far & away a better team this year. Their starting pitching and their bullpen has been incredible. And their clutch hitting (a.k.a luck) has to be seen as magical.
I look with bewilderment at all of the Tiger’s problems this year, such as starting pitching not going deep into games, erratic & undependable bullpen, free swinging & poor situational hitting. And then when I look to see how the Indians are in those areas, I see a team who has it together in spades.
Well, that may be true, but if he looks good in ST, there shouldn’t be any doubts about his starting with the team. We’ll also get a couple more looks out of him this season.
My son and I both reminiced about last season and our decision at the last moment to attend the Oct. 14 ALCS game. Since, I’m 50+ years old, I know how seldom the opportunities can come around for a season like that. I’m hoping the Tigers continue to keep improving this team as promised and be a contending team for many years. That would be a dream come true.
I think alot of teams would love to have Salty right now LOL
I don’t want Glaus he’s about washed up and his recent headlines don’t help either, injury prone. Lowell is an old fellow too. But I can’t see the BoSox giving him up yet.
As down as everyone is on us this year, really it’s just the Indians year. Seriously. They have the ‘magic’ this year. They had the hits fall and the luck.
Uribe is so bad it’s laughable. I have seen way too many Sox games, and can honestly say Santiago is a better all-around player than Uribe. There is no sense in bringing in Vizquel, since that’s just Santiago +15 years, + $6 million, so unless they trade for Renteria (Atlanta rumored to be shopping him) or perhaps Clint Barmes, my guess is Ramon is our SS next year. My FEAR is that DD’s love-fest for Jack Wilson comes to fruition and end up with #13 up the middle on ‘08. From a cost-benefit point of view, Santiago is the best option, unless you get a stud like Renteria (who is a free agent after 2008).
Also, we are not getting ARod or Santana. Let it go.
division is gone
Look at the fans, they’re already putting on their Indian headresses. That makes me sick.
Isn’t uribe a murderer too?
I really think when the Arod talks come alive we’ll be in mention. Seriously. Boras client. Owner who wants to spend money. etc.
As much as i tip my cap to the Indians i must say this Central title should have been wrapped up by sept 5th. We were in a free fall mode and the Indians were doing the same. With the talent they have they should have done the same thing we did. It should be been over long ago. Thats why its so bad seeing the Tigers lose(tonite as well 7-4) late in the season to them. But the season was ok and want 2008 to come much sooner.
Jim, I still want Salty even if we cant get him from Texas lololol I was hoping the Tigers could get him in the offseason after pudge left but no the Braves wanted to go all out for him. I sometimes hate my favorite teams. lol
I don’t understand how anyone blames our situational hitting.
Runners on: .828 OPS (2nd)
Scoring Pos: .858 OPS (1st)
Scoring/2out: .871 OPS (1st)
Because of games like this. Short term memory.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=E0n.....mp;search=
chief wahoo damn you
Oh god with the surprising one season spark that Jack Wilson had this year DD will probably bring him in instead of letting Romon spread his wings and find his own groove for a full season and see what he can do with 400+ at bats. We still need a #3 SP who can it be guys? And a 3B if we decide(not likely) to move Inge?
I would keep Santiago at SS and spend like crazy elsewhere. The guy is amazing on the field. And a power team could use a good bunter…
The last thing a power team needs is a bunter. Extra base hits score guys from first base almost as often as they score them from second base.
While Santiago hits better than a pitcher, it would be the Tigers playing by NL rules vs. other teams that play by AL rules. 8 on 9. The difference between an adequate and a very good defensive shortstop is about 10 runs per year. The difference between Santiago and an average hitting shortstop is about 30 runs per year.
I hope the Tigers go hard after the rock-solid closer Joe Nathan. One, it will be a huge improvement in this flawed bullpen. And two, it will strip our division rival of its most important players.
BTW, I see that the Indian’s Paul Byrd is a free agent. What is the chance he could end up in Detroit?
I understand the White Sox parallels, but there is one huge, enormous difference that is paramount, the White Sox won it all, the Tigers didn’t. Plus, not only did the Tigers not win it all, the Tigers quite, honestly, embarassed themselves by their pitcher’s fielding worse….no, MUCH worse, than a blue collar Sunday afternoon softball team(and no, that’s not an exageration).
The Psychological factor is totally different. And the fact that the Tigers underacheived this year, left so many runs on the board, and had so many games given away, the way sports psychology works, typically, they’re more likely to try to prove to the world they’re for real, etc.
I think a closer parallel can be drawn to the Indians, who were on a roll in 2005, locked in, made a huge run, then choked the last week of the season and came up short. I think that carried over to 2006, as the Indians players were quite noticibly apathetic most of the year in ‘06, plus throw in a bullpen that gave away alot of games for the Indians last year.
But this year, from the start, the Indians were the team I feared the most, the table was set, in my gut, I could sense that they would be on a mission this year to try to erase the memory of last year. I tried to deny/suppress it, but I’ve felt it since spring training.
So, while I certainly didn’t want the Tigers to come up short. Ironically, I honestly think it helps their chances next year.
Byrd? Now now people, let’s not get crazy here.
http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/.....ree_a.html
take a gander and do some window shopping. I’d take adam dunn, Cordero, Linebrink.
None of the catchers would be better than pudge or even really, rabelo.
Lowell is younger than I thought…
Nathan:
Factor out July 19 - Sept 1 and the Detroit Tigers (statistically) would be the best offensive team in baseball, by sizable margin — and across the board. Moreover, they would be right up there with the best offensive teams in a span of decades. Then figure out where the Tigers were form July 19 to Sept 1 with Runners on, Scoring Postion, Scoring/2 out, etc. Not even close. The numbers you cite are somewhat skewed.
Unfortunatley, seven weeks asleep at the wheel can kill the best of teams. To give Rod Allen some love here, I’d gander to say if the ‘27 Yankees gave away 7 weeks of their season, they wouldn’t have made the playoffs either.
Chris:
I wouldn’t say the Indians are a “better” team. They had a more consistant bullpen, buoyed by a solid starting rotation (like the 2006 Tigers) — which tipped the scale. The Tigers are a better offensive team than the Indians — and have a similar caliber of talent in starting pitching. The Tigers bullpen woes started the meltdown. On top of that, the Indians caught all the breaks this year (similar to the Tigers last year). The Indians also had so many late inning come backs and walk offs — literally a dozen or so games. That’s well above the mean. At some point you have to acknowledge luck and the “magic” of a given season — that doesn’t make a team better than another team — just more fortunate.
I tip my hat to the Indian’s fortune this year. They are a solid team with more luck going for them than a blind golfer making a hole in one. At some point, you can’t fight the magic.
I too will tip my cap to the Indians and wish them a quick exit in the playoffs.
I fully expect now that the season is over that Inge will go on a 18 for 40 and get his batting average up to near .250 and delude everyone into thinking he is adequate at 3rd base. He should get 200 at-bats in the first two months, and if he’s sucking, you suck it up, put him on the bench, and use it as a defensive replacement. One of the signs of a big market team is knowing when you got to take a big bite out of the s–t sandwich and realize you’ve made a big financial mistake, and move on.
And I’m sorry to go back to this, but this team either played the second half with a). a lack of heart b). a baffling blase attitude and/or c). a complete disregard for smart baserunning and situational hitting.
***The last thing a power team needs is a bunter***
Yes, yes. I was being sarcastic, given the Tiger’s bunting woes last night. Perhaps it wasn’t too salient a point.
However, I’d still take the defense of Santiago over, say a Uribe, and build power and spend elsewhere. Who knows? Maybe working with a good hitting coach could transform Santiago into a solid .270 hitter? He’ll probably never hit for power… but… there is something extremely special about his leather.
I don’t know where you’re getting that 40 run figure; I’ve seen him save 5 runs in 5 games….
Oh, if you want a dynasty in Detroit, just sign AROD and put him at short. Playoffs every year - a lock. And not that they’d need it with him, with Arod and a healthy Sheff, I think you just might see the 2006 of Inge show up again. I’m not convinced that Ilitch won’t do it either. he’s made statements that he looks at, not just the contract size, but return on investment as well. If a player cost X million, but profits increase more than the cost, is it really an expense?
Sign AROD.
For anyone who needs a pick-me-up, check out some of the clips on this site.
http://mlb.mlb.com/news/gameda.....p;c_id=det
A player needs to do things to prevent runs and avoid outs or atleast make them productive. For the money Santiago would be nice. Not the end all be all obviously. But come on for 400k we could go get Arod.
d.)without their #3 hitter and without 3/5ths of their starting rotation healthy.
Bonderman for Miguel T. i dont think i like that one. But Bonderman at best is a #3 starter for me id start him #4 next year. He is starting to be a weak link and he is definitely not a ace of the staff. As much as i dont want to say it Jones needs to stay. Rogers is going to stay. We need a #3 starter???? And a 3B if we can get rid of Inge.
Well, I’m pretty sure the lack of those players didn’t force the others from laying down like dogs in those first two games in KC or compel three guys to be thrown out at 3rd base in the past three games. You can trot out all the sabermetrics you want, i’ve never seen a contender play such fundamentally poor baseball in my life.
***d.)without their #3 hitter and without 3/5ths of their starting rotation healthy***
Gosh, and I’m sorry to go back to this, too, but… makes you kinda think that maybe the so-called “front runner” in baseball at trade deadline should have perhaps tried to address some of those problems? ???
Bilfer, you have to go with things that are quantifiable, concrete and things fans can see like heart before you can go blaming injuries!
But if we want heart, then we will have david eckstein next year playing ss.
Oh dear God I hope we do not have David Eckstein playing SS next year.
Best case scenario is to get Guillen healthy enough to play short and find a 1B. Guillen is far more valuable with his bat at short moreso than first.
Fundementals I can agree with you on, but that’s different from heart. Poor baserunning will lead to problems obviously, but a lack /overflow of heart is impossible to see. We can’t will ourselves to win.
Mark, if you want heart then we will have Eckstein playing SS next year. He may be tiny in stature but he has the biggest heart.
I don’t know where you’re getting that 40 run figure; I’ve seen him save 5 runs in 5 games….
Look at any defensive metric and measure a good glove man (which is what Santiago is; he’s not Ozzie) vs. an adequate glove man. We’re talking 10 runs per year.
A .270 regular without power and a low walk rate is a huge detriment to the lineup. Santiago’s career OPS is .595. He creates 3.1 runs per 27 outs. That’s compared to the 4.9 runs per game scored this year in the AL. That’s a good 30 runs per season being given up right there.
T, if the Indians have a solid starting rotation, a much better bullpen and a situational hitting line-up that produces “luck” or “magic”, then we will have to say they are better. And yes, this is partialy due to the luck of having a number of players with statistical career years. I’m counting on a little of that kind of luck to run out on them next year.
For the Tigers in ‘08, I happen to think that this team is pretty much stuck with the position players and DH that you see on this team today– Santiago at SS, Gullian at 1st and Casey gone. And I don’t think that is a terrible thing. Remember, when the team was healthy in the 1st half, they were running up the score board.
Santiago’s glove is a big asset, and yes we’ll have to hope his hiting isn’t too awful. As far as 3rd base goes, all we can do is hope that Inge can revive his ‘06 numbers to some degree. I’m not too worried about Pudge, but if he’s not going to be a 300 hitter, he’s got to learn to take more walks and run up the pitching count.
If anything we need to see improvement on it is pitching, pitching, pitching and more pitching. If we don’t see much of that, then the Indians won’t need so much luck next year.
Jeff:
Okay — I can buy those points — but, who do go get for Santiago, and how many more runs does that player give you offensively and cost you defensively — and at what cost? Those are the questions. There is such a thing as the law of diminishing return… that’s the whole point. You’d probably have to spend a boat-load to get some better offense with a considerable downgrade on defense — and at the end of the day, the margin between Santiago’s overall production and who you could replace him with probably isn’t worth the exponential increase in price. (And don’t even bring in a player like Jack Wilson into this discussion).
I’d probably like Inge, too, if he was a player you could say affords you prime talent elsewhere. I really like Santiago’s production for the price — he and I are probably in the same tax bracket
That’s not to say I’m opposed to shopping for a power SS. But those are the questions you need to consider.
Jim,
I never commented on heart. I commented on David Eckstein being bad at baseball. I don’t care if he’s 5′2″ of grit, hustle, heart, and whatever other intangible you care to throw in there, at the end of the day he is a replacement-level player.
I personally do not believe “heart” was a problem with this team, and I’m not even sure how to measure it if it was.
heck, why do we all have to bicker.
Whens the last time anyone here went out and just played catch? This game is supposed to be fun darnit.
Mark, I agree with all of that. I was just being sarcastic about the whole heart thing. I’m not an excstein supporter
Chris:
I have to agree. Pitching, pitching, pitching. Fortunately, I think DD is on the same page with that line of thinking. I would like to see what we could get for Roberston and retool the rotation for an upgrade. Resign Rogers for a one year deal and try to get one more solid starter — a #2 guy, so that Bonderman and/or Jurrjens is your weak link. If Bondo gets healthy, I could live with that.
Jurrjens is young, and somebody pointed out earlier that you have to consider that he might just be a flash in the pan — but I like what I see thus far. I think he has potential to be our Carmona next year.
I gotya, Jim. Hard to pick up satire through a message board, especially when “heart” has been a hot topic around here.
Your comment about having fun withthis whole thing is dead on. I’m already looking forward to 2008.