Game 151: Tigers at Indians

PREGAME: Here we are, the Cleveland series. The last 3 chances for the Tigers to exert their will on the teams they are chasing. I can’t remember being this nervous for a game, maybe game 2 of the ALDS, but even then I’m not sure. I guess I’m nervous because not so much of what a win would mean – that just keeps the window of hope alive – but what a loss would do to already slim playoff chances. There’s been lots of talk about “if the Yankees win X” or “if the Indians win Y” and none of it matters as much as “if the Tigers win tonight.”

As for the match-up it’s Kenny Rogers and Paul Byrd. The Tigers have scored some runs off of Byrd in 3 starts this year, but he’s still a good bet to get to the 7th inning while giving his team a chance to win. He won’t walk more than 1 or 2, so pitch count isn’t usually a concern.

Rogers is making just his second start against the Indians this year, so maybe a slight edge to the Tigers in the “lack of familiarity” department. Rogers should be stretched out after throwing 83 and 94 pitches in his last 2 starts, but it’s more a matter of how his elbow holds up.

One thing to watch is what happens if the Tigers have a slim lead late in the game. Todd Jones has thrown 3 days in a row, and of course yesterday was especially rocky. I’d be surprised if he was available. And Joel Zumaya has thrown the last 2 days, but he didn’t throw a lot of pitches in either outing so we might still see him.

Game Time 7:05
DET @ CLE, Monday, September 17, 2007 Game Preview –

POSTGAME: Crushed. Me, the team, the season, the postseason hopes. Crushed.

302 thoughts on “Game 151: Tigers at Indians”

  1. Man, I hope we win these first two games, I want the Indians fans to instantly LOATHE me when I go to the game Wednesday 😉

  2. I love Ramon Santiago he’s fun to watch.

    Baaad bunt by Inge there…

    Did Paul Byrd never get the memo that he’s washed up? 😛

  3. Kinda meltdown inning for the tribe here with the two errors. Too bad about that DP. Inge continues to shine.

    I can’t believe this team is sucking me back in. I thought I was free and clear to pursue my studies without undue distraction.

  4. Going into the bottom of the 5th I thought getting 2 more innings from Kenny would be best case scenario. But a 7 pitch inning might mean we see Rogers in the 7th.

  5. I won’t make it down at all. I have friends going on Wednesday though. It looks like there are plenty of seats available.

  6. JML and Adam, I hope you are right. I’m just looking for the low-hanging fruit, though I don’t know how much more I can handle revisiting the Yankees 8th inning on Friday and and Sunday, and Boston’s 9th last night.

  7. Congrats, billfer! I wish I could justify such a purchase on my current budget 🙁 I would looooove to watch playoff games in some TS seats, whether this year or some other.

  8. LOL I’ll shop your sponsors to help out. I guess after getting season tickets and making trips to Cleveland (this Wednesday) and Chicago (last game of the season), I’ve invested enough in baseball this year anyway. Of course, if they are still selling seats in a few weeks…

  9. How far ahead would the Tribe be if Hafner was having a more representative season? He’s still at .254? Sitting on 22 homers?

  10. NOT HAPPY. I know I am in the minority but I do not feel confident when Zumaya comes in. No control. This is a disaster in the making.

  11. They would not have done this if Kenny had been left in. I am DONE with Zumaya. I am so sick of the radar gun, and the flames, and all of that hotdogging drama. GET SOME CONTROL.

  12. For everyone saying Zoom has no control, I counted 5 pitches that were clearly strikes called balls in that inning.

    Notably the one where he ACTUALLY struck out Grady Sizemore.

  13. While I admit this is a bit of a stretch, I’m going to question Leyland’s decision to pull Kenny there. It’s too late in the season to pull a guy who is dealing and capable of running a high pitch count. Especially when you have a depleted pen. Then you go to the guy who is most likely to walk a batter. Zumaya is fabulous with men on base, because he strikes so many out. You have a good chance of an unproductive at bat. But with no runners on, who cares if he k’s someone? Might as well stick with Kenny who seems far less likely to give up a walk (and consequently a big inning).

  14. Kathy I am just reverting to my pre-2006 mantra: Expect nothing and be pleasantly surprised by any good results.
    I’m just tired, and Kenny should have kept pitching.

  15. Remind me of this moment when Maybin’s hitting 40 homers and playing gold glove outfield in 2010. Because I’m ready to strangle him right now.

  16. Way to go Miner. You ABSOLUTELY DO NOT WALK THE LEAD OFF MAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    This is pathetic.

  17. What else can you do? I promise you, none of you would have kept Rogers in, not when he has three starts left. Not when he’s been on the DL TWO DIFFERENT TIMES this year. Not when he’s given you seven innings, and thrown 100 pitches, and kept the other team to two runs.

    You just don’t do that. This isn’t the last game of the season.

  18. “This isn’t the last game of the season” — we are 3.5 games out with 11 games remaining if we lose this. Every game is the last game of the season.

  19. Well, two questionable calls by Leyland in that inning, and both of them worked out to his liking.

    Maybe we’re destined to score a few this inning.

  20. Adam, it might be the last game of the season. . . .
    You know, you’re talking to an old lady here. I was raised on baseball without pitch counts and radar guns, and where a complete game was expected. Sure their arms eventually fell off but you gotta take one for the team sometimes!!
    But assuming the correctness of your formula, we therefore need guys who can step in and finish the game. And we don’t seem to have them. Which does not bode well for a postseason run anyway.
    I’m just happy to have somewhere to sigh and vent.

  21. I was going to write how idiotic Leyland is for not bringing Seay. But Miner actually has a pretty similar, low .200s BAA against for lefties…

  22. Shades of 06, Leylands hunches workd. My god he should have walked sizemore and he shoulda brought in Seay. Heck with it lets get one IN COME ON TIGERS COME ON

  23. Strike 2 to Sheffield, same pitch that was called ball 4 to Blake in the 8th, except the Shef pitch was 2 inches further outside…..consistency is all we ask for.

  24. Remember how fun it was when we won seven games in a row in october last year? This team controls my life way more than it should.

  25. I just keep thinking back to the 3 run inning, where 5 straight guys reached base with nobody out. And Jim Leyland said, hey, here’s a free out by having Inge sacrifice. It wasn’t Leyland’s fault that Inge hit into a double play, but a bad move nonetheless.

  26. This game is over. We haven’t scored since the 4th.

    Turn off the TV and come back in half an hour to see who hit the walk-off.

  27. Anybody know why Zumaya has struggled so much this year, especialy in high-pressure games? My impression is that he trys too hard to strike out the hitter, and loses his control of the pitches.

  28. Uh, I’m not a manager, but when your season is on the line and you leave in a guy that you sent down to AAA a month ago, well, that doesn’t seem quite right.

    I know we didn’t lose this game because of Leyland, but i can’t stand him.

  29. I didnt want to say it while he was pitching but Miner had only given up 2 homers up to this point…prolly why he was left in.

    Awesome. How do we respond tommorw?

  30. I mean, let’s face it. The season ended when we won 16 games in 45 after the break. If I had to pick one word to describe this year, I’d use “patchwork.” Nobody likes to use this because it sounds like an “excuse,” but we never really fielded the team we needed to field to be succesful. All year long we operated at, at our best, about 90% of what we could do.

  31. Well walk off win plus an Indian walk off with the Central title and for all intents and purposes the tigers hopes and dreams of being back in the playoffs. We are feeenished. All we can do now is hope for a 90 win season perhaps? That would be great!! But no playoffs this year tiger town. Steve’s tigers playoff chances

  32. They give you hope then they stick the knife in again and give it a twist. I had a colonoscopy earlier this week that didn’t hurt as much. Man oh man!

  33. Would just like to thank Jim once again for making some brilliant strategic decisions tonight. Great move pulling Kenny. He looked awful in the seventh striking that dude out on a sick curveball. And great decision to go with Miner for a third inning when he looked shaky for two straight.

    I really, really hate him. And the worst part is everyone thinks he’s so brilliant. Am I the only person who thinks our success last year had more to do with having healthy players, Kenny Rogers, Curtis Granderson a year older, Justin Verlander, Joel Zumaya, Todd Jones, etc.? But maybe it was just Leyland pinch hitting Alexis Gomez in the playoffs and going out to talk to Bonderman every inning. Kill me.

  34. Can we now say it…….

    Zumaya is a terrible pitcher. Completely overrated, and the worst thing that happened to the Tiger’s bull pen is him coming off the DL.

  35. It’s a long-shot end of the season anyway, frankly I’m pretty happy just seeing the boys do well in general of late. It bodes well for next year. I can probably be suckered into even more expensive season tickets for next year.

  36. It is appropriate that we say farewell to the Tigers after a game like tonight. How many times this year did they lose a game after being ahead (often by several runs) after the fifth or sixth inning? There was nothing exceptional about this game. This game was typical of the Tigers this year. They must have lost 25 games like this.

  37. Hmm…let’s see Zumaya in three straight games? Or Miner, who apparently can pitch two scoreless? Leyland gets his hearty share of the blame. Just when you think there’s hope. Horrid.

  38. Zumaya is a terrible pitcher? Didn’t he have a sub 2 ERA last year? He’s like early 20’s and was hurt this year…not gonna pin the season on him…

  39. Can we now say it…….

    Zumaya is a terrible pitcher. Completely overrated, and the worst thing that happened to the Tiger’s bull pen is him coming off the DL.

    hahahahaha. Right. Have you just not seen that entering tonight he’s had a .159 BA Against with and holding opposing hitters to a .450 OPS since coming off the DL? The K/BB ratio isn’t great but that comes when the dude is still in spring training. Get real.

    The real injustice tonight is Jim Leyland making 837 decisions to give this baseball game, and subsequently and hope of a playoff birth, away tonight. Well done Jim. I hope the paycheck from the Indians is worth it. Get this clown out of here. I’m re-starting up ASAP.

  40. I think Leyland is a good manager, I don’t think he is brilliant though. I don’t think pulling Kenny was the wrong move, he was at 100 pitches and he’s been injured most of the year. You don’t mess with that.

    I wouldn’t have gone with Miner for another inning. He wasn’t looking good from the get-go.

  41. I don’t know why everybody is angry with Leyland for leaving in Miner… Who else was he going to put in there?

    And why isn’t anybody hanging the goat ears on Zumaya. He is the one who blew the save…. He was just awful.. The only thing I blame Leyland for is putting in Zumaya in the 8th instead of Miner. If he would have done that, then the Tigers would have won.

  42. Chris, I’ve been saying it about Zumaya for a while now. The wildness, the arrogance, the feigned remorse when he screws one up. “I learned from it” Oh spare me.
    I’m so angry right now.
    Also agree with Forty. Yeah the injuries killed us this year but with Kenny back and looking great why pull him. When he did not come back out I felt impending doom.

  43. The other decision of Leyland’s that I didn’t like was the double steal with Sheffield on 2nd. His success in running this year has come from reading the pitcher and catcher and then running when he thinks he can, not when there’s a guy on first who is making him run.

    The two outs at third base with one out were killers.

  44. Well chris,

    He has disappointed but he just wasnt himself this year. He needs some off season conditioning and pitching help to get him back to top form. No way is he closing next year as im pretty sure now DD will have to trade for a closer or sign Todd to two year extension/deal again because Zumaya is not ready and Rodney i would not stick him in there at all. So im not off the bandwagon for Zoom yet but he needs a complete turn around next year.

    Plus Leyland let Miner pitch too many innings and resulted in a loss bad move Jim.

    Like i said before lets just set our sites on 90 win season and ill call it a nice season (especially when you go like 19 for 40 or something like that), and look forward to the moves DD will make(hopefully a LF, SP and/or CL) We shall see……..

  45. How many guys were available in the bullpen tonight? Okay, no regular starters and no Jones due to three games in a row.

    L: Byrdak, Rapada, Seay

    R: Capellan, Durbin (between starts), Grilli, Rodney, Vasquez

    That’s eight guys not named Zach Miner available.

  46. It wasnt a bad pitch, i mean he went down and got it, it also had movement so unless he used an extreme uppercut swing(WHICH HE DID) it would hav e been a ground ball,

    Leyland isn’t an idiot, but today he wasn’t too good.

    what is the average tiger fan? someone who bandwagoned last year? someone who has watched for 40 years? someone who went through ’03?

    i say if they lose another game to the tribe this series then then can kiss their central title good bye, however if they can win the next 2 we still have a shot.

    also, wc is still up in the air even if yanks hold on

  47. The late game offense last year was more of a statistical fluke – kind of what Cleveland is experiencing this year.

  48. PLUS TO ADD TO MY FIRST POST, ANYONE WHO THOUGHT THE TIGS WOULD GO 12-0 and the TRIBE 0-13 or w/e were dreaming,

    IT isn’t over til its over

  49. 5.5 games back of Cleveland and 3.5 back of the Yanks when both these teams are hot. Im not a bandwagon fan in fact ive loved baseball det and Atl since 1990 when i was able to understand teh game for the first time,(I was 6). Tell me please David, how you can climb over that hump in the +/-10 games left. When both teams are hot and the Tigers can get hot but lose one hear and there it doesnt get the job done. We are statistically done this year. BP before today had us only at sixteen percent of making the playoffs. There just is no way, unlike the Twins last year we are no where near the top to sneak into the WC or the Central title theres just no possible way…..

  50. As much praise JL got last year is as much blame he shoulkd take this year. Just pitiful managing. Even in the 9th with man on second and no outs. You need to walk Sizemore. Luckily, he made an out. Then you leave Minor in to pitch to two lefties. What is Seay for? Again lucky but still poor managing.

    Maybin-5 tools? no good yet at anything. I learned in LL you don’t try for a 3rd on a ball to the left side in front of you.

    Zumaya needs to throw stikes but why was he in there 3 days in a row. If you trust Minor to pitch the 9th in a tie game why not bring him in the 8th bwith a 3 run lead and hold on JZ if needed?

    This team can’t play fundamentals and the playersv and coaches should be ashmed of themselves. They make millions. They should at least no how to play the game. Disgraceful.

  51. If you were’nt a Tiger fan, it would have been a great, great game to watch. I don’t blame Leland at all for this loss.

  52. “Like i said before lets just set our sites on 90 win season and ill call it a nice season (especially when you go like 19 for 40 or something like that), and look forward to the moves DD will make(hopefully a LF, SP and/or CL) We shall see……..”

    Yes, a 90 win season with no October will be a bit of a success given the health and pitching problems of this team.

    There are a lot of things for DD to work on, beginning with getting more good innings out of starting pitching. If there is one thing we can identify for Cleveland’s success this year, it is the ability to avoid digging deep into their bullpen for winnable games. And it doesn’t hurt to have lights-out relievers such as betancourt & Perez.

  53. I know everyone is frustrated right now, I am too, and we all need to vent. Heck, I think I’m sicker than anyone else because I’m in Ohio and I have to listen to the gleefull hogwash of the Indians announcers….

    But I have to say, as far as Jim Leyland, there’s nobody else I’d want more as my manager, I don’t agree with every decision. Some of them puzzle me, but there’s nobody else I’d want managing the Tigers.

  54. Im not we are going to be in contention for a long time to come, but the 19 for 40 or watever was the killer and it happened last year as well, THAT CANT HAPPEN with a Playoff bound team. We need to fix that this off season find out why the whole team suddenly gets exhausted. Again a 90 win season is good but so-so compared to where we should be, which is in the playoffs with ease. It should be us and Boston fighting for the best record our drought killed us. 90 win season is doable but the hope for playoffs baring a miracle collapse of yanks or cleveland, are deam like less then one percent. And thats pretty much the cold hard facts…….:(

  55. The bunt with Inge when we were another hard hit ball away from running Byrd out of the game and extending our then 5-1 lead that turned into a rally killing double play was a horrendous decision.

    Going to Zumaya in the 8th inning was terrible. Save him for the 9th, afterall everyone wants him to be the closer of the future right (not me, he’s more important to us in the 7th/8th with Rodney, but that’s another discussion). Miner was 100% the right choice for the 8th inning, not Zumaya (who’s unavailable for tomorrow after throwing 40+ pitches in the last 3 days).

    Miner in the 9th. Fine, I’ll buy it. But the lack of control and looking terrible was evident from the start.

    Not bringing in Seay for any of the LH hitters that Miner luckily retired was ridiculous.

    Not walking Sizemore with 1st base open and 1 out to set up the double play in the 9th, I believe it was (might’ve been the 10) was such an easy call to make, yet he doesn’t make it.

    If you don’t want to walk at least play the matchup game and grab Seay from the Pen to face Sizemore/Cabrera/Hafner and then go back to a righty to face V-Mart/Peralta/rest of the guys.

    Sending Miner back out for the 11th was just asking for the game to get ended.

    It’s crunch time. This was a sweep the series and we have an outstanding shot to make the playoffs. It was time to manage like it’s the playoffs and with the abundance of arms available — like someone pointed out having 8 arms in the pen to turn to — and he doesn’t do it.

    I guess this is what you get when you bring in a manager that’s sub-.500 for his career and only had 7 winning seasons out of 16 as a big league manager. Well done, Jim. Well done.

  56. I spent way too much time this afternoon, devising scenarios for the end of the season. Every way I sliced it, we could afford 2, maybe 3 more losses to have any kind of reasonable chance at the postseason. Well, that’s one.

  57. Is it me or did last season spoil everyone? I’m thankful the Tigers are a winning club, with a winning season. Last year was a blessing, most of us weren’t expecting it to be as great as it was. Most Tigers fans would have loved a WS birth at some point, but most of us would have been content to see them have a winning season.

    I for one am happy with this year and I hope they get a closer to the playoff spot (I’m one to never say never), but if they don’t it was still one hell of a year, and one they can build on, unlike so many of those other seasons.

  58. Great points Mike R. This is indeed the time to manage like it’s the playoffs. Did anyone see much of the Yanks and Sox this last weekend. Both managers were maneuvering like it was game 7 of the WS.

    Leyland was probably lucky to ride Miner for two innings, but the third was just a joke.

  59. Most blown leads of any bullpen in MLB.

    “They were who we thought they were…and we let ’em off the hook.”

    Put a fork in ’em.

  60. I’m among the resident optimists here, but I think we may have to declare this The Day The Music Died (for 2006, that is; I still believe the future of the Detroit Tigers is as bright as it is for any franchise in baseball).

  61. I don’t think the team losing, it’s just this team has lost so many games this year with unsound managing and poor fundamentals from Hall of famers–pudge’s .292 oba to 5 tool “prodigies” going to 3rd with the play in front of him that you wonder what the hell leyland and the coaching staff is teaching these guys. Beginning with the pitching errors in the world series, this team suffers brain locks and moronic decisiion-making more than any contender i can remember. it’s one thing to play like you’re mildly retarded when you have little talent and you’re going 65-97, but when you’re the defending American league champs with a primo payroll, it drives me nuts.

  62. Also, that’s a classy “No comment,” Kathy.

    What’s the point of telling someone who’s obviously a committed fan that they “know nothing” about baseball? No point arguing with some that makes that statement.

  63. The most frustrating part is…. this WAS a winable game. The Tigers SHOULD have won this game. I would be much less upset if we just got our asses handed to us, like we did in that Rangers game a week or so back. When you let games slip through your fingers, especially a “must win” season/ending game, it’s just a red-hot knife through the heart.

    i doubt the team has anything left. You could see it their eyes after the Tribe tied the score in the eighth. We just couldn’t push a run in after that — with ample opportunities and our most productive hitters at the plate. I’d be surprised if they win another four games. Of course I’m upset now, and if I’m wrong and they still have the heart to play after tonight (they need to win out — even then wouldn’t guarantee anything) I’d be pleasantly surprised, but I’m really just resigned to the fact now — as I’m sure everyone on the team is. You just can maintain that level of intensity forever. There is really nothing left to play for. The Tigers needed to win this game — and they should have won. Another defeat scoffed from the sweet embrace of victory….

  64. I rarely comment and won’t pretend like I have read all of the comments after the game (there’s over 200!). But I will say this, The Tigers are an odd team by virtue that somehow their most popular (well-known) player is a set-up man. Secondly, I believe Zumaya is overrated. Big league hitters can hit a fastball, especially when they know it’s coming. Unlike Verlander, who has become smarter, using his changeup and curveball more, Zumaya has not evolved past his meathead mentality of blowing opponents away. This is especially problematic when his heat is nowhere near his pre-injury speed. While Leyland should take his share of the blame for bullpen moves this year, this game’s outcome rests on the shoulders of Zumaya. It’s a shame that Kenny Rogers dug deep to deliver seven strong innings, only to see it erased in the blink of an eye. The Tigers still have a shot, how many people thought their five-game winning streak would last in-definitively ? Here’s hoping that tomorrow will bring the beginning of a new winning streak and a reminder than all hope is NOT lost.

    Goodnight from Sterling Heights.

  65. Leyland needs to go. We blew this whole thing in August. The team under performed for too long. He should have another World Series under his belt and we should be cruising into the playoffs this year. Instead, we have nothing as a team. He doesn’t play, but he has made enough bonehead decisions that cost this team greatly. He was unable to lift the team out of it’s losing ways for 7 weeks . As far as I’m concerned, he’s a failure.

  66. I don’t get how someone can say that Zumaya is overrated. Coming into tonight opponents were hitting .187 off of him for the year and he’s still in early season mode and probably afraid to throw his curveball. And last year, well we know what he did.

    And to correct my info, Jim Leyland has had 9 losing season out of 16 as a manager.

  67. I’m amazed at all this Leyland bashing here. He’s only the manager. He can only put the players he has available on the field, and then he has to hope they can perform. And too much this season, like tonight, the players (particularly from the awful bullpen) couldn’t get it done. And even if he would have left Rogers in the 8th, Zumaya would have most likely blew the 9th. Just imagine if Zumaya would have preserved the lead. Nobody would have been saying that Leyland made a careless move & got lucky.

    The fatal flaw of this team which turned the W into an L is the bullpen. As we can see, the absence of Zumaya was not the primary cause of their problems. Sure, we have some guys who can step up from time to time. But we just don’t have some one who is lights-out reliable. Look at Betancourt & Perez. Nobody in the the Tiger pen is even half that good… Nobody…

    And that is not Leylands fault.

  68. And hey, holy crap people, but what the heck were you expecting?

    I’m not talking about the game, I’m talking about the season. If anyone had looked at the numbers two, three weeks ago, you’d already have seen that basically it was going to be just about impossible to get into the playoffs. This team has been injured, held together by tape and Timo Perez, lacking bullpen arms, Sheffield, Thames, whatever. We basically rode a dead horse for two months and you were still expecting us to get to the playoffs? We start September 10 and 3 and you want to blame someone for a loss that was going to happen anyway? Let’s say we won tonight, but on Wednesday Nate Robertson gives up 10 runs – at least our hopes didn’t have to be held up for two more days! Weren’t we all saying we had to win out to get to the playoffs? Were any of you really expecting that to happen? Sure it sucks, and sure now we have to kind of realize we’re not going to get there, but so what? Do you really want to be the kind of whining fan who expects to win every year regardless of circumstance? Does that remind you of any kind of fan we know?

    Is anyone forgetting Magglio’s impending batting title? His “first player since Tram to have 200 hits in a season”? All Granderson has done? Tigers scoring all those runs, leading the league in all those categories? Verlander possibly getting 20 wins? The beleaguered city Detroit steadily gaining respect?

    “We didn’t get to the playoffs, so the season was wasted.” Screw that. We’re not freaking Yankee fans. We appreciate baseball for what it is, a beautiful game, a heartwrenching game.

    I wish we’d never gone to the World Series last year. At least then we could all still be the humble, modest and hard-working stand-by-our-boys-type people who just watched the games because it was the Tigers.

    I won’t be upset about this game, or this season.
    I don’t want to be a Yankees fan.

  69. Um. Isn’t 9 out of 16 a winning record?

    Yes it is. However, his overall record is 1247-1265, under .500 for his career and a .496 winning percentage. Either way, at best he’s mediocre and often heralded as a managerial genius when he isn’t.

    I’m amazed at all this Leyland bashing here. He’s only the manager. He can only put the players he has available on the field, and then he has to hope they can perform. And too much this season, like tonight, the players (particularly from the awful bullpen) couldn’t get it done. And even if he would have left Rogers in the 8th, Zumaya would have most likely blew the 9th. Just imagine if Zumaya would have preserved the lead. Nobody would have been saying that Leyland made a careless move & got lucky.

    No, I was fully prepared to come in after a win and complain about Leyland’s moves. Ultimately, it does hang on Zach Miner and Joel Zumaya but Jim Leyland makes too many decisions that don’t put us in the best position to win the baseball game. Like bunting with Inge that killed a rally that should’ve knocked Byrd out of the game. Like leaving Miner out to dry (like he did to Jones back on June 1st in that same ballpark) and going to Zumaya in the 8th for apparently what was going to be a 6 out save. He’s not accustomed to saving games, let alone going for a 6 out save in his 3rd straight day of work. Not to mention having a full bullpen of arms to play a match up game (for instance, when Sizemore led off and it was Grady/Cabrera/Hafner, going to Bobby Seay and his 0.95 ERA and .208 BA Against since May 28th with 25 K’s/10 BB’s in 28.1 IP in that time frame) would’ve been putting us in the best position to win. We have left handed specialist’s and middle relievers we could be using. What’s the hesitancy to use Jason Grilli? He’s finally been good since early-August and he hasn’t pitched since the 11th? Did I miss news of him getting hurt?

  70. Adam,
    No one is forgetting the unforgettable season that Maggs, Verlander, Polly, and Granderson are having. They are having OUTstanding seasons and should get all do respect and rewards. But as a TEAM the tigers lost it for themselves. Weather it was Leylands moves, the Bullpen, lackluster offense for two months or whatever the Tigers lost it for themselves. Plain and simple. And of course as I’ve stated above, the Tigers still have one thing to play for and thats two 90+ win seasons in a row. Now lets get that and the season wont be a total loss. And I’ll say it once I’ll say it again, GOOOO TIGERS!!!

  71. Yes Mike R, Zumaya is overrated.

    Why do I say that? Because here we have a game where he blew a 3-run lead in the 8th in a must-win game and almost all of the critism is directed toward the manager for leaving some other reliever in to lose the game in extra innings.

    So how disapointing has Zumaya been? Of the 20 blown saves this year, Zumaya has 4 (20%) in just 26 apperences. Yes folks, every 1 in 6 apperences, Zumaya has blown a lead (YIKES!). Anybody who performed as poorly out of the pen would surely be under fire by fans. But Zumaya somehow still gets praise as if he were some kind of hero.

    By comparison, Raphael Betancourt has only 3 blown saves in 62 apperences.

  72. This is not the worst game he has managed and don’t forget, I’m sure he knows every single player, how they feel and everything and sure as heck know he doesnt tell the media everything.

    This is not the be all end all.

    IF we lose another game in this series however IMO beating cleveland for the division becomes unattainable. If we leave the series 3.5 games out it still would be not likely but if we go lets say 8-1 and they go 5-5 or some combo of that.

    After us they play 3 at home against Oakland the first game they go against Blanton, who in his last 4 starts has a 2.79 ERA and has gone at least 7innings in each. Plus for the finale I hear Rich Harden is comming off of the DL.

    Then they go to Seattle for 4, and then KC. If the rotation for KC continues then they will face KC’s toughest starters Meche, Bannister and Grienke. In the Seattle series they line up to face every starter except Weaver.

    IF WE WIN THE NEXT 2 games in the series and go on a roll (8-1). Then if they split in Seattle which is very possible, and lose 2/3 to oakland and beat KC 2/3 that would be 5-5 and we would tie.

    Like I said it doesn’t look good but this game did not “end” our hopes.

    please refer to the Yogi Berra quote above

    Twins beat us out last year, Cards limped into playoffs


    I will assume and you dont have to I dont really care that we win the next 2 games and NY will split the remainder against Baltimore (so winning 2/3). Again we would be 2.5 games back

    We would have 9 games and they 10. If they were to go 7-3 and we were to go 9-0. Tigers 8-1, Yanks 6-4… Tigers 7-2, Yanks 5-5… Tigers 6-3, Yanks 4-6 but you get the point.

    IMO I think the Tigers will rebound and at least be similar to this game except the outcome, they have too many good vets not 2.

    If you don’t believe in this team then why watch. Go watch the Lions or something.

    I believe that they can and probably will post around a .800 winning % for the remaining games somewhere near 9-2 mark and finish with 92 wins. So if you think the Yanks will go greater than 6-6 or 7-5 then stop watching.

    BTW the Yanks will face Toronto 4 best pitchers… Over the last month Halladay has an ERA of 3.26, McGowan 3.00, and AJ Burnett 1.70, Marcum not as good 7.94

    When they Face the Rays they also face their toughest pitchers, Shields, Hammel and Kazmir…

    Hammel has a 2.12ERA over this month, over 3 starts first one was against the Yanks (5ip 1ER)

    Shields has been downright dominant similar to AJ with a 1.64 ERA over this month (3 starts)

    Oh and Kazmir just this past POTW this month over 3 starts he has a 1.80 ERA AND HIS LAST TWO STARTS HIS ERA HAS BEEN 0 and has 21Ks in 13 IP

    Then the Os and hopefully they can win 1/3


    NOT JUST 1 but IMO 6 starters who could all beat them.

    FINAL NOTE, WE have to win the next 2 games and try to sweep at least 2/3 final series.

  73. BTW the Yanks will face Toronto 4 best pitchers… Over the last month Halladay has an ERA of 3.26, McGowan 3.00, and AJ Burnett 1.70, Marcum not as good 7.94

    When they Face the Rays they also face their toughest pitchers, Shields, Hammel and Kazmir…

    Hammel has a 2.12ERA over this month, over 3 starts first one was against the Yanks (5ip 1ER)

    Shields has been downright dominant similar to AJ with a 1.64 ERA over this month (3 starts)

    Oh and Kazmir just this past POTW this month over 3 starts he has a 1.80 ERA AND HIS LAST TWO STARTS HIS ERA HAS BEEN 0 and has 21Ks in 13 IP

    Then the Os and hopefully they can win 1/3


    NOT JUST 1 but IMO 6 starters who could all beat them.

    FINAL NOTE, WE have to win the next 2 games and try to sweep at least 2/3 final series.

  74. Looking at this objectively… many games have they given away this year? Too many to count….and not once did I notice a ‘hangover’ that lasted ’til the next day. I think they’ll bounce back. They’ve been on a mission, and what I’d expect: win tomorrow, lose Wednesday(simply because Sabathia is really good), and then sweep the Royals, the Tigers are Red Hot, and the Royals, though much improved this year, are reeling right now. So 4-1 over the next 5. And the Yanks? I’d expect them to take the next 2 over Baltimore, and then split with Toronto, that’s 4-2 over the next 6 for them.

    That would pull the Tigers to 3 games out with 1 week left.

    That’s a tough position, but maybe the Orioles can ‘shock the world’ and take just one game in this series. That would put the Tigers just 2 out with 1 week left. That’s doable.

    I’d be really happy if Guthrie could come back and start one game against the Yanks at the end of the month:

    Jeremy Guthrie (strained left oblique) played catch today and said he was “90 percent” pain-free and would like to get back on the mound soon. Trembley said Guthrie would return only if he could start.

  75. There are to many apolgists for JL who think he is God and to many fans who keep saing they are grateful for last year after so many losing seasons. That is BS! Leyland should have won that team and this team. His decion making in using players, pitchers and in-game moves are atrocious. All year long. Don’t be content-that is for losers. You think the Yankees would be content? Ha.

    All teams have injuries. Wasn’t the hype on the pitching staff was that they were so deep? Also players need to look at themselves.

    JZ, agreed overrated right now. His batting average against is decieving. Let’s count his walks, walks, walks and 0-2 hits he gives up. If apologists want to say his injury set him back (someone said Spring Training for him ) then he hould not be in a very ivotal game,

    When will Inge realize he isn’t Babe Ruth and cut back his swing and try to get his bat on the ball and move a runner over once in awhile.

    Maybin-he doesn’t belong yet. He embarrassed himself in every phase of the game. That’s Jl’s fault not to realize he ain’t ready.

    Pudge, go back on steroids or at least take a walk once in awhile. 9 all year? pathtic.

    What do managrs and coaches say to these guys?

    Stop being satisfied with mediocrity and newspaper fluff pieces.
    Demand a winner. If this were NY Leyland would be skinned alive this year.

    Lot of work for DD this off season to ensure future success.

  76. I know there are lots of reactions/overreactions that are brought on in the heartbreak of a horrible loss.

    The bullets:
    -Joel Zumaya is not a bad pitcher.
    -Joel Zumaya has been throwing more curves and change-ups since coming off the DL and isn’t just trying to blow the ball by people
    -Jim Leyland very often makes bad in game strategic decisions. He made the same bad decisions last year. He makes many of the same bad decisions that all managers make. Sometimes he manages by the book and people don’t like that. Sometimes he manages the opposite of the book and people don’t like that either.
    -Zach Miner was not sharp, but he did his job, and the home run pitch wasn’t a bad pitch. Credit Casey Blake.
    -The deployment of relief pitchers wasn’t the biggest mistake Leyland made last night. It was the Inge bunt in the 4th where Byrd was on the brink of being knocked out of the game, meaning a whole lot of bullpen innings for the Indians at the start of the series. Instead Leyland was willing to concede an out when 5 straight batters had reached. Inge further screwed it up by laying down a crappy bunt. Bad strategy compounded by bad execution.
    -The Tigers weren’t going to go undefeated down the stretch, but a loss didn’t need to happen in this game. Not one where you got early offense and a great starting pitching performance.

  77. Billfer,

    Well stated. I had a bad feeling after the Inge bunt, and it did come back and bite us.

    I am at peace with missing the playoffs this year. I still am amazed at what we were all thinking about the Tigers 4 years ago (I wonder if they’ll lose 122??).

    The minors are full of good arms. Maybin will be a superstar. And between Illitch’s pocketbook and Dombrowski’s shrewed moves, we are going to have lot’s of fun summers in the forseable future.


  78. …and THIS game is the reason I wrote the tigers off weeks ago, to save myself the agony I see all of you going through now.

    A sweep of the current division leader was a lot to ask, and that is what they needed.

    Some of those games we blew in the first few months of the season are looking more important now.

    Next year is another year, and I will be there Opening Day.

  79. I’ll be honest with you — I think you should be amazed they’ve been able to keep it together as much as they have, and completely thrilled if they actually make the playoffs. Kenny Rogers has made less than 10 starts, Bonderman was a mess for a half of a season before finally shutting down, no Zumaya for four months, no Sheffield for a couple of months (in effect)… Their pitchers have flat-out looked flat for a lot of this year, maybe because of the work they had to do last year.

  80. Somthing Buster Olney wrote and I think it’s a good point. For the way this team has played we should be much farther back…

  81. Stop being apologists and demand accountability. The Tigers as an organization blew this season away. Management and players.
    Every team has injuries.

    JL completely overrated as a strategist. Maybe he is good in the clubhouse with the players. He outta be-he let’s them get away with the same bone head plays game after game. Inge has got to go.

  82. Jim Leyland very often makes bad in game strategic decisions. He made the same bad decisions last year

    One major difference last year was that the pitching was good enough to get past a lot of this. One thing that also showed up both this year and last year was the tendency of the Tigers’ hitters, when they had a 3+ run lead lead, to stop battling at the plate and just swing at the first decent pitch.

    Last year that wasn’t as much of a problem, as the starters and the bullpen held those leads. This year, with more pitching struggles, the hitters’ tendency to get to five runs early then first-ball swing in later innings is much more of a problem.

  83. Not going to disagree on the point Leyland makes bad decisions. That Miner got Haffner out was luck, not sign of genius.

    But let’s not look at his record to figure out whether he’s good or not. A manager’s record is just so much based on the players, it’s not a great guage. Was he decent n 1997 with a world series ring, then stupid in 1998 (54-108) a year later after the fire sale? That season alone pretty much is the decider between a sub- or above-.500 managing career.

  84. Leyland’s a good manager, you can’t argue with his results. And I know, losing record and all that, but he was stuck in many bad situations. As Kurt notes, how can you blame him for the post-fire sale Marlins, or the post-Bonds Pirates?

    But he has weaknesses. His strengths are related to his ability to manage the clubhouse and build a bullpen. His greatest weakness is his infatuation with light-hitting guys who (allegedly) play good defense, which is how the Tigers ended up with Neifi last year.

    He also lets his hunches overrule his common sense. Now the difference between putting the right guy at the plate and the wrong guy may be 100 points of on-base percentage, so 9 out of 10 times it doesn’t matter. But over a season that 1 out of 10 adds up.

    And he doesn’t understand sample size. Some right-handed hitter is 3 for 8 vs. a certain right-handed pitcher and he will defend not pinch-hitting on that basis.

  85. If I get mislabeled as an apologist, so be it, but I will respectfully disagree with the anti-Leyland sentiment. I also think he is very underrated as a manager. In general, I find that managers, by and large, get very little credit when teams win(they always point to the talent) and take a lot of heat when teams lose.

    I haven’t read the entire thread, but I see a lot of people upset over the Inge bunt. However, I didn’t notice anyone upset with the Santiago bunt. I’m not able to watch in of the postgame comments, as I’m outside of Michigan, but know for certain that this was Leyland’s decision? It’s quite common for players to do this on their own. But let’s say it was, I don’t have a problem with the decision, and in fact, if it was executed properly, could have saved the game for the Tigers(all else being equal of course). The problem was it was a horrible bunt, but if executed properly, it would have made a double play much less likely(I haven’t looked at the numbers, but when first base isn’t open, it almost makes me nervous as it seems that they have a knack for killing their own rallies by grounding into double plays)advanced the runners to 2nd and 3rd with only one out, and then all we’d need would be a flyball or a gound ball to the right side of the infield(even more likely with a lefty – Granderson coming up) to give the Tigers 6 Runs, and 6 Runs would have been enough to preclude extra innings.

    Not saying I would have called for a bunt there, but I don’t have a problem with it. Nor did I have a problem with the Santiago bunt. True, the result, a poorly executed bunt resulting in a double play, stung, as it killed the rally, but that’s baseball. Billfer’s point about knocking Byrd out of the game is well taken. I can see that. However, I’m not so thrilled about the Tigers facing the rest of the Indians bullpen, who, it seems has been lights out vs. just about everyone, especially the Tigers(don’t have numbers to back this up, just an impression from watching a ton of tight games), although it would have the positive effect of possibly using up more of the Indian bullpen which could benefit them later in the series.

  86. I just finished reading all the articles in the Free Press and News. Every single person has a different opinion about how we lost the game. They point to Leyland, Zumaya, Inge, Maybin and just about everyone else. I started to laugh thinking about how our hometown team messes with our emotions. Everyone points to the mistakes made. But in reality, the Indians pitched better and came up with the clutch hit when they needed it. To me, it’s almost always about the pitching. If you have great hitters, they’ll get it done, but the pitching has to be primo.

  87. I think the Tigers could sign Barry Bonds to a 50 million one year deal, he could proceed to slap my mom, and Brandon Inge would still be my least favorite Tiger.

  88. I’m going to add one more comment and then be done with this thread. It’s just too much to keep re-living what happened last night.

    There’s been a lot of talk about the Inge bunt. I’m not sure that was the wrong call. Inge is absolutely the worst hitter with RISP on this team. Not to mention his check-swing/whiff rate. He’s been better of late, but I for one have absolutely no faith in him to advance the runners (can he even place a ball on the right side of the infield?) or pick up a RBI in that situation. Nobody else should bunt in that situation, I agree. But consider the hitter – and go by percentages. If you don’t want to endure a situation like this in the future, get a better offensive third baseman. Any black whole in a lineup should be expected to bunt, and bunt with success. Was the Santiago bunt the wrong call, too?

    The point is — going strickly by the odds — Inge should have a better probability laying down a successful bunt than a combination of either a) wiffing or b) grounding into a double play anyway c) flying out without advancing the runners and producing an out anyway. Inge didn’t execute. You learn how to bunt in little league. If he puts the bunt down you have runners on second and third with one out — and you have a higher probablity to produce more runs than if you let him swing away.

    That said, I agree it’s a more desirable play to blow the game open resulting an early departure of Byrd by letting him swing away — but it’s just not the most probably outcome. You can blame Leyland for a lot of boneheaded calls last night; but don’t blame Jim Leyland because Inge failed to execute.

    Also, on the Zumaya comments — A Zumaya 96 mph is very hitable. What made Zumaya special is because he could hit 103 mph prior to the injury — that’s when a well placed fastball is almost impossible to hit. Until Zumaya ups the velocity on his fastball, he’s just another arm in the pen. Sometimes he’ll come thru, sometimes he won’t.

  89. If any of you think that Leyland only is sub-.500 for his career because of the teams he’s had, ask yourself if any of these guys would have his record:


    The media and most fans put him in that category. He’s clearly not. Sure, he isn’t Grady Little, but he isn’t in the above list, either. Not by a long shot.

    You can point to the fact that he has a ring. So does Terry Francona, so what is your point? He was handed that Marlins team on a silver platter. All he did was have to manage egos for 1 year. In fact. thats all he’s really good at.

    He’s Alan Trammell with a good reputation. The Lloyd Carr of baseball.

    The thing that really wrinkles me is the fact that he acts like he is beyond reproach. Get over yourself and stop blowing games, and rushing prospects while you’re at it.

    DD should take the keys away from Leyland. Neifi, Mesa, the Inge contract, Miller, Maybin all reek of Leyland’s poor judgement.

  90. I loved the bunt. Normally, Inge bunts well and could have advanced the runners possibly scoring the run at 3rd unless they threw to the plate and got the out there. Needless to say there would have been one out on the play unless the Indians fumbled the ball again and we caught a lucky break. Inge just had a bad bunt.

  91. Those contracts are the result of Dave Dombrowski. All draftees playing in the minors are a risk to bring up. Obviously, the scouting reports were incorrect. However, some guys do shine in the minors but that’s as far as they get. As highly touted as Miller and Maybin are, they may never end up to be major league players.

  92. Not saying I would have called for a bunt there, but I don’t have a problem with it. Nor did I have a problem with the Santiago bunt

    Santiago’s bunt was a safety squeeze, where the Tigers were trading an out for a run (and didn’t even have to sacrifice an out). Trading an out for a run is different from trading an out for a base.

    The expected runs with 1st and 2nd, nobody out, is 1.50. The expected runs with 2nd and 3rd, one out, is 1.40. The probability of scoring at least one run goes up from 63.6% to 68.6%. So bunting in that situation is a good one-run strategy. It’s not a good strategy to blow the game wide open, which should have been the goal given that the pitcher couldn’t get people out. And that’s all assuming the bunt is successful.

    As for Inge and RISP, he’s hitting .296 this year with RISP. Perceptions sometimes differ from reality.

  93. I see some of you are satisfied with a World Series loss and not making the playoffs with a possible 90 win season. I don’t care how many winning seasons and World Series rings Leyland has. Add two more winning seasons to his record. Don’t look forward to next season as something magical is going to happen. As Honrechuck says, demand accountability now. Get rid of a few dead-weight players who are dragging the whole team down and get rid of Leyland. The best thing a manager can bring to a team is to play with consistency. He has not accomplished that thru his own inconsistent managing decisions.

  94. Ron, two things.

    1) I don’t care if you’re the president of the United States, the people can demand accountability either work in the clubhouse or they’re Mike Illich. You, I, the media, we don’t get to do that. I guess you could try not following the team or walking out, but ask the Orioles or Lions fans how those things work.

    2) If you’re going to be unhappy every time the Tigers don’t win the World Series, you’re going to be unhappy most years of your life. This season both sucked and was enjoyable. Too bad things happen, some were random, some were iffy decisions. But fans of 29 teams aren’t going to be satisfied when October ends.

  95. T Smith – nice post

    Jeff – right there were differences between the Santiago bunt and the Inge bunt, but I’ve noticed that, the bigger difference in terms of manager complaints most of the time(not all, but most) is the fact that the Santiago bunt worked out well, and the Inge bunt didn’t.

    My sabermetric friends will certainly disagree with this, but, statistics are a fine tool, but there is a danger is oversimplifying things and putting TOO much stock in them, because, stats only tell you what happens in an average situation. Problem is, one is never faced with an average situation.

  96. Inge is absolutely the worst hitter with RISP on this team.

    This isn’t close to being true with Granderson, Casey, Pudge, Sheffield (probably a much higher OBP in this case), and Guillen all having lower batting averages with RISP.

    I didn’t have a problem with the Santiago bunt because while not typically a good strategy, Santiago is an excellent bunter and an awful hitter otherwise. He can’t hit the ball far enough to the outfield typically to even get a sac fly. That was about the only batter situation where I’d bunt.

    In the case of Inge, the infield corners were playing way in expecting a bunt, making it easier to get a ground ball through. Plus Byrd was looking quite hittable at the time and had thrown quite a few pitches that inning, from the stretch, under pressure. Leyland knew when he called the play that even if it was successful it would be a 1 pitch out – essentially giving Byrd a gift out.

    I’m not blaming Leyland for Inge screwing up the bunt. It was awful on Inge’s part, and Leyland should have no reason to expect a double play. I’m blaming Leyland for calling the bunt in the first place. I’ll take my chances on the routine double play on a regular at-bat.

  97. billfer wrote:

    In the case of Inge, the infield corners were playing way in expecting a bunt, making it easier to get a ground ball through. Plus Byrd was looking quite hittable at the time and had thrown quite a few pitches that inning, from the stretch, under pressure. Leyland knew when he called the play that even if it was successful it would be a 1 pitch out – essentially giving Byrd a gift out.

    good points

  98. “Crushed. Me, the team, the season, the postseason hopes. Crushed.”

    That about says it all…see you all next spring.

  99. honrechuck,

    You slander Pudge, condemn Leyland, etc., but you let Dumbrowski off the hook? I mean, he’s the guy who didn’t think we needed help before the trade deadline. What if we had Lofton to fill in for an injured Sheffield for instance?

    I am not looking for scapegoats, but you’re way of the mark.

  100. DD (taking chances on signing players) and Ilitch (putting the money to bring them here, along with going overslot in the drafts) are two of the reasons why this season and the last have even meant anything.

    It’s not easy to build a dynasty friends, growing pains. Last year was just a fluke really.

  101. Kurt,we are the best team in baseball and then there are the 29 others. We’re just not going anywhere because our driver lost his map. I’ve never been dissatisfied with the Tiger’s finish until last year. Very rarely have they had the horses to go all the way. I was hoping Illitch read this site and would listen to the voice of reason from some of us. Better yet ,I believe some of these posters actually work in the P.R. dept. for the Tigers. I thought maybe they could get the message to Mike.

  102. Kurt,we are the best team in baseball and then there are the 29 others.

    We certainly have one of the most talented organizations right now, but we absolutely did not field the best team in baseball this year. Not even close. Throughout July and August we were scrambling to field a mediocre team.

    Injuries aren’t an excuse, but they are a reason. You don’t bitch and you do your best to overcome them, but at the end of the season, you have to realize that they were a large, uncontrollable factor.

  103. I do like your optimism, Ron, but honestly, in the end it’s Illich’s drive to win the big ring that has to matter and it sounds like he wants one pretty bad. Whether he reads the site or has people who do, I don’t know, but he has to want it for himself and make it happen.

    You are quite correct about July and honest, and Jeff too.

    Honestly, and I disagreed with this at the time, but in retrospect, I’m not sure if a move by Dombrowski at the trade deadline would have made the difference to overcome things. Maybe it will be best he kept the tradeable players around for a better shot next year. Of course maybe we’ll look back at this time next year and wish he made a trade this year. You just don’t know.

  104. Billfer makes a great point…it wasn’t the bunt call or the hitter at the plate. It was giving a gift out–even in the best of circumstances–to a pitcher who was on the ropes and on fumes. We missed a golden opportunity to blow the game wide open and gather insurance runs…something that never hurts with our bullpen. I thought we’d end up with at least 2 more that inning.

    That game was a microcosm of the season…great in spots, but just enough bad execution to mean heartbreak in the end.

  105. I blame the fact that Inge sucks so bad that Leyland even remotely thought about bunting for him.

    The dude is crap. Batting .241. Career .242. Subtract his .203 year and his .287 year and guess what” You’re still at about .245.

    He just blows. If he was even 20% better, we could afford to carry Santiago as a slick fielding .240 hitting shortstop. The only problem is the #9 position is held by our third baseman who we owe 18 MILLION DOLLARS.

    Where is an expansion draft when we need one?

  106. I couldn’t agree more about Inge. I’ve said all along even last year that he is not dependable in the least. Last year was a freak year and he will never, never, again aproach those numbers. Take that to the bank. You can blame last night on him and not Leyland. If Inge executes the basics of the game the game is blown wide open. I still can’t believe the contract given to him. Inge laughed all the way to the bank.

  107. Seriously, i think it’s time to think of trading Inge by agreeing to swallow 2/3’s of his contract. He can get meaningful at-bats on a contender.

    What makes this season so frustrating, is this team has talent. You don’t get pissed when your team goes 75-87 and Bobby Higginson is the best player. You die a little when a talented team doesn’t upgrade at trade deadline, has players regressing in at-bats, and your skipper manages by horoscope.

  108. ***I blame the fact that Inge sucks so bad that Leyland even remotely thought about bunting for him***

    Can’t get much more succinct than that. That pretty much sums up the whole Inge/bunt debate.

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