Game 52: Tigers at Angels

PREGAME: It’s Jeremy Bonderman and Ervin Santana tonight as the Tigers try to snap a 19 inning scoreless streak.

Santana has been mediocre in his last 3 starts since coming off a complete game shut out. His pitch count has been running over 100 by the 6th inning despite the fact he isn’t walking many (only 15 in 66.2 innings). Of course I pointed out that Jon Garland wasn’t striking anyone out last night, and he fanned 5. So I’d expect Santana’s pitch count to be about 71 after the sixth.

The last time Jeremy Bonderman pitched in LAnaheim he surrendered 11 runs in only 2.1 innings. It was the beginning of the elbow problems for Bonderman. He’ll try to notch his 3rd straight quality start tonight.

It’s an odd lineup tonight reminiscent of the 2006 ALCS with Polanco batting 3rd.

  1. Granderson, CF
  2. Joyce, LF
  3. Polanco, 2B
  4. Ordonez, RF
  5. Cabrera, 1B
  6. Guillen, DH
  7. Renteria, SS
  8. Rodriguez, C
  9. Inge, 3B

DET @ LAA, Tuesday, May 27, 2008 Game Preview –

POSTGAME: Nice job Leyland. Way to take the guy that’s dealing out of the game. Things worked so well with Cruceta on Sunday. Beautiful.

And Lopez. Walking the .167 hitting number 9 hitter with 2 outs and becoming afraid to throw another pitch?

Jeremy Bonderman threw a grand total of 30 pitches for balls in 7.1 innings. Cruceta and Lopez combined to throw 22 in 1.1 innings. In-frickin-excusable.

351 thoughts on “Game 52: Tigers at Angels”

  1. Just saw a stat on the Angels broadcast that is interesting…Angels are batting .230 over their past 14 games and have scored 3 or less runs 10 times, yet are 9-5. Man that must be nice.

  2. Rod: “Larish has been tearing up the minors, but Gary Sheffield brings…”
    Me (yelling at my tv): “Nothing, Rod! He brings nothing!”

  3. That’s because they get consistently good pitching, Kevin.

    And you’re right, that would be nice.

  4. I hate to be pessimistic, but I felt at the start of this series there is absolutely no way we don’t get swept by Anaheim.

    I really hope they prove me wrong.

  5. Why bring up Larish if you’re not going to play him? So if Inge plays third while Guillen is at DH, Larish rides the bench. He only plays if Guillen is on 3rd.
    I like Caberra, and he will hit better, can he play 3rd at all? Larish seems like the only prospect position player we have ready to come up, Hessman is already past 30, so I understand the call up from that perspective. But if Caberra is blocking him at 1st, does he become a DH at age 25?

  6. No doubt in my mind that the Tigers are getting swept. This team has shown no way at breaking through decent pitching this season, and that is exactly what they are facing tonight and tomorrow. Santana, Saunders and that bullpen against a team of chokers. I wouldn’t be surprised if they don’t even score a run.

  7. No doubt, Chris? No reason to watch, I guess. You should go do something else and then call me on Thursday, at which point I’ll tell you all about it while we both praise you for how prescient you are.

  8. Sweep? It’s not like the Angels are mashing the ball around the park. That win they tallied yesterday was almost an embarrasment.

  9. Dave BW, Chris is just frustrated, like the rest of us. He is just venting in a traditional unCoors manner. I think.

  10. here, fishy fishy


    I don’t think Larish is with the team yet, he had to fly to LA from Toledo today. He might be available for a pinch AB later in the game. I think he’ll get some playing time once he’s around. You’re right, no sense in bringing him up if you’re not going to play him.

    Cabrera with a bomb, nice!

  11. I started this whole “sweep” talk, blame me.

    It was just a gut feeling based on pitching matchups, and the typically rough time we have any time we’re out west. Tbone you’re right, the Angels aren’t crushing the ball, but they generally have superior pitching and we give away too many outs.

    Again, I really hope I’m wrong but the Angels are just so hard to play against, it’s not a good matchup for us.

  12. My issue really is that the only position he can play is DH, and is blocked there by Guillen with Roids (in this case, the good kind?).
    The which came first question: was Guillen not able to bend over and field grounders because of the roids, or was it that lack of movement that caused the roids?

  13. Garrett Anderson likes to swing. First pitch pop out tonight. It makes last night that much more frustrating.

  14. am i the only one not getting sound on fsn detroit tonight

    i am on the west side of the state

  15. I know Billfer posted some stats based on offense and defense of a player before the season, runs generated vs. runs saved, how is that holding up for this season with Caberra and Guillen playing different positions, and Guillen playing it especially poorly.

  16. “Mario suggests that the Tigers could get out of their rut by winning some series’”

    Why didn’t we think of that?

  17. Man, Bondo is really fun to watch right now. I’m soaking up every minute of it, who knows how long it will last.

  18. Andrew, let’s see how you feel about Inge when he gets up to bat. Now Carlos is at bat. My oh my, the thoughts going through my head and the jokes probably going around in MLB. Let’s hope the Dugout doesn’t get ahold of this.

  19. Well, I’m already proud of them for scoring 1000 runs on paper. That’s not easy.

  20. This one is just cruising along, isn’t it? It’s possible that the Tigers could win this game AND Santana could help my fantasy team

  21. Three called third strikes on fastball tonight for Detroit. Too passive? Strange to say on a night where Santana’s pitch count is in the 50s in the 5th.

  22. “Well, I’m already proud of them for scoring 1000 runs on paper. That’s not easy.”

    Sean wins post of the day!

  23. Ahhh….life is good, Guillen at DH, a major league quality fielder at 3B, Bondo with 4k’s/0BB’s.

  24. Give me a Tiger win instead, Dave. Keep me posted, folks. I’m following the game through comments today. Nerve-wracking.

  25. Dave BW, you just beat Sean for great post.
    These west coast trips kill me. Not sure I can last til the end of this game.
    And, every time they show Carlos, I just find it disturbing. I don’t ever want to hear the word “lanced” again.

  26. How about that H & R folks? Would be interesting to see the response on angels blogs after that call.

  27. Kathy, I don’t mind Inge batting. His approach seems much better this year. It’s easier to watch him this year in my opinion anyway. Besides, Guillen’s bat is still in the lineup, and that’s good enough for me. Those two plays by Inge just now help to drive home my point. I wouldn’t wish Guillen’s “condition” on anyone, but I like this defensive alignment and batting order tonight.

  28. My goodness. Now I see why Angel fans complain about Scoscia running their team out of innings.

    Guillen/Cabrera/anybody else doesn’t make that play at 3rd that Inge just made, by the way.


    Angels had runners on 1st and second with one out and Pudge threw out Garrett Anderson at third attempting to steal. On the next pitch Mathis hit a rocket to third that Inge caught about 6 inches off the ground.

  29. Thanks, Sean, I feel creepy all over again.

    And Kevin, no, nobody (on the Tigers) except Inge makes that play. I sit in upper LF at comerica park watching everything at third, and most of the season has consisted of me saying, “Brandon would have made that play”

  30. Well, I’ve seen enough from Inge at 3rd tonight already to convince me he needs to stay there.

  31. By the way, the Angels announcers just said that with their win tonight, the Texas Rangers have crawled back to .500.

    Think about that for a second.

    Guess it’s good we caught the Rangers early.

  32. And earlier, Sean, Inge did one of his “run halfway across the infield to pick up a groundball and get the runner at first” plays that we all love so dear

  33. Not much you can do about that. Angels outguessed Leyland and executed perfectly.

    Nice play.

  34. If there wasn’t a book on Joyce there sure is now. Breaking pitch on the inner half and he’s toast.

  35. Hi, I just got back from a hard-fought T-Ball game, just in time to heard The Pasco Kid had a no-hitter going and see the first California-LA-Anaheim-North America Angels get a hit.

    Quick question for everyone- Does anyone else go back and read the game posts if they where unable to follow the posts during the game, or I the only dweeb who does that?

  36. Ok, Matty. I think I’ve become disenchanted with you. Remember when you used to make contact? It was a good time.

  37. This game is moving at a great pace. I hope I can sleep on a Tiger win by midnight.

  38. I definitely do Slashpyne. It’s a great way to get a feel for the game. Though lately, the posts during wins have turned from optimism to sarcasm.

  39. I want that retro 70’s Tshirt- I had one like that when I was a kid. Where have you gone, John Wockerfuss?

  40. Slashpyne,

    I totally do that. No worries. Even worse, I’m generally here most nights posting.

    This game is 75 minutes old and we’re bottom 6. Incredible.

  41. Thanks, Mark! This sounds really good, an engaging game. The lineup gave me a really good feeling the moment I saw it.

    Bring me a calzone. I smell a pennant!

    (I’m switching gears just for you, cib. Don’t wanna creep you out with all the other Guillen references I had lined up.)

    Dave, you are on FIRE, man.

  42. Slashpyne, I even read the posts when I come home from having been at a game. Dweebette here.

  43. With two runners on and one out, Gary Matthews Jr hits a shallow flyball on the first pitch.

  44. Was that ever a wretched looking swing from Guerrero — nowhere near as pretty as Inge’s swing-and-miss swings.

  45. Oh, go ahead, Sean, I’ll have to learn to live with it since I am sure it will be the topic of conversation in the paper and on all the radio shows from now on!

    I’m tired, so the best I can come up with is “Preparation DH.”

    Go ahead.

  46. what



    Bonderman just froze Vlad with an 85 mph slider at the knees. I hate Hawk and DJ, but…..

    HE GONE!!

  47. Let me guess – Tigers up 1-0?

    Oh – everyone’s on fire tonight. Funny stuff, and good to hear a little joy.

    So… are they playing any Seger for Carlos’s ABs tonight? (Do I get by on obscurity, cib?)

    Go Tigers! What’s happening?

  48. Impressive, Vlad just might be the most intimidating hitter in the game(not going by stats, just his presence and plate coverage) and Bondo gets him.

  49. I’m following along even when I could be watching or listening… you guys are too much fun and cracking me up something fierce tonight.

  50. Is Bondo going with the slider more often tonight, or just pulling it out for special occasions like that?

    cib, that was great. Beats everything I had. I surrender.

  51. Adam,

    Do you mean witless?? 😉


    Santana was still throwing 97 in that inning, BTW. He’s at 86 pitches, 63 for strikes. Can’t fault the Tigers for being aggressive, he’s been around the plate all night.

    Bondo’s at 67 pitches.

  52. You know, that was a pretty valuable at-bat by Cabrera. He saw 8 pitches which even with it ending in an out is a big deal when the first two outs of the inning were recorded on 2 pitches.

  53. BOOOO MIGUEL CABRERA. He just popped out to first base. What a stupid bum. He’s the worst player in the major leagues! ASK FOR OUR MONEY BACK, DAVE!

  54. 85 minutes in, and we’re halfway through the seventh. This is almost as fast as those early Verlander games where he would take about three seconds between each pitch.

  55. Mark in Chi:

    Please, I beg you. No Hawk and DJ impressions allowed. I just lost some brain cells summoning the image.

  56. Thank you, guys.
    But Sean, please, go ahead. It’s past my bedtime which is probably why the Seger reference is not kicking in. But what the heck, I’ll try to hold out til end of the game.

  57. Sorry, T Smith, I’ll lay off the Hawk and DJ impressions. If you must know, I threw up a little in my mouth as I was typing it.

  58. OH DEAR LORD was that an amazing play by Granderson. He robbed Kotchman of a couple RBI there

  59. Wow, Grandy with a great catch!!

    First mistake Bondo has made all night and Granderson makes a great play to bail him out.

  60. Nasty pitches by Bondo right there. He just carved up Mathis on three pitches to get out of the 7th.

  61. Well fortunately, Tbone, Kotchmann hit it where one of the only two guys on our team capable of bailing a pitcher out can actually catch it.

  62. Bondo needs to finish this game. Save the pen for tomorrow. Great D. I’m pretty sure that is the first time I thought that all year.

  63. Uh-oh. I sense a disturbance in the force. Are they out of the inning yet?

    MAN, I wish I could see this one.

    The Seger thing’ll come to you, cib. I’m hoping the delayed reaction thing will be make it funnier.

    The Tigers had BETTER pull this one out. Our good spirits are not to be wasted.

  64. They’re batting in the 8th, Sean. Torii Hunter just took a single away from Renteria with a diving catch.

  65. Rear end friends. Too much, Brian. (Meaning funny.)

    Yes, I also feel a little nervous without some more runs. Even if Bondo is crusing. By the time I type and post this, I’m thinking… 4-0? 2 run shot? Please?

  66. Bonderman with 80 pitches in the 8th, but in the worst jam of the night. Runners on first and second, no outs

  67. Bondo at 79 pitches, he may be able to finish this game.

    That said, I hope Leyland has somebody up to start the 9th if we’re up 2-0.

    Infield single by Willits to start the 8th followed by another single by Rodriguez (not Pudge, the bad Rod on the Angels).

    2 on , 0 out.

  68. Brian in Tampa: it’s just a classic link. I’ve watched it probably 50 times and it never gets old. The first time you see “Rod” I always crack up.

  69. Seriously? At least use Lopez, a guy who could actually get out of this without scoring both of Bondo’s runs.

  70. Greg, you know as well as I do that message boards are a very individualistic thing. It’s every poster for his/her self. You making me laugh has nothing to do with me making someone else laugh, and I challenge you to offer proof to the contrary.

    Well, given the pace of the game – could the hour be at hand?

  71. Oh god this can’t be happening. It’s late, I must be asleep and dreaming – hey, it’s chilly out, it must be February and the season hasn’t even started, this is all a dream right??

  72. Yeah… I kinda wanted Bondo to pitch out of it. It’s not like either one of those hits were roped. I’m not quite trusting Cruceta here….

  73. given Leyland’s option of either Lopez or Cruceta here, I’m not sure taking Bondo out was the right call. I’m more sure that going to Cruceta over Lopez was not the right alternative.

    Here’s hoping it works out.

  74. Matthew K’s on a great pitch. For strike one, he swung and missed at a near-wild pitch.

  75. nasty stuff by Cruceta to K Matthews looking for the second out.

    Vlad up, Cruceta might be pitching around him.

    Here’s a silly question: is anyone warming? Anderson is up next, does Seay want another crack at him?

  76. Where’s the cheddar? The stinky cheese? The high heat? The gas? The rocket? The high smoke? Throw something to change the eye level, please. God.

  77. Thanks, Mike. You make a pretty good clubhouse guy yourself. I think we’ll keep you around.

    I tell you, tuning back in to find that Cruceta got out of it would help MY chemistry right about now.

  78. That’s it for me. You know, if I were Bondo, I’d kill Leyland right now. I know I’m an old lady and I’m always talking about how baseball was when I was a kid, but you know, a guy would stay in the game and either pitch out of it or make his own mess. But you wouldn’t have someone else making the mess for him.

    I don’t know how much longer I can take this. This just sucks.

  79. Screw this team…gosh..fricken….this one is on Leyland…all Leyland. Such absolute bull crap to bring this guy in…………………………

  80. I fear we’ve seen the best the Tigers can deliver. I’m off to bed in hopes that good juju comes our way…

  81. Anybody else feel like Cruceta will give up another run before dominating the next hitter when it no longer matters?

  82. And where is Dontrelle to face the LH hitter? Where is the matchup play at all? Where is Jim Leyland for that matter? What the hell is going on? How many times can I ask a question in one post? 4? 5? 6? IS Aquilino Lopez really JUST NOW getting up in the pen? Has he not watched this inning?

  83. I said it last night….I will repeat………..our relief pitchers absolutely never do their job………..NEVER!

    Someone cite me one game this year when they did……and I do not mean with 10 run leads!

  84. Should have brought in Lopez. I know it’s easy in hindsight, but it felt right at the time, too.

    Please, just get us out of this inning, Cruceta.



  86. I hope I will at least see some comments from Leyland on this. Don’t they have to question him about a mess like this?

  87. Mine as well stop watching this one, because I know they will lose it by some freak incident….

  88. Looks like it’s gonna be another walk-off win for the Halos tonight guys.

    And they’re playing so badly too…such a shame.

  89. well that’s heartbreaking. at least bondo’s ERA went down.

    Meanwhile, weve had one hit since the 2nd inning and we’re suddenly supposed to start scoring runs again?

  90. “well that’s heartbreaking. at least bondo’s ERA went down.”

    We have to focus on the little things

  91. How bad is the damage? The Tigers HAVE to win this one, if not for The Gary, then for us. We had some really really good vibes going on their behalf. I don’t want to be let down like this.

  92. Golly Jim. Santana is still in, but somehow Bondo isn’t. He gave up 2 crap hits , and you yank him. I think it’s past Jim’s bedtime. He’s confused.

  93. it’s 2-2 in the 9th, Sean. Both runs charged to Bonderman, although they both scored because of Cruceta.

  94. I guess the bright side of this could be that when (if) Zumaya and Rodney come back, we can get rid of some of this bullpen trash. Then we just have to pray those two guys remember how to pitch after a year.

  95. Boooooooooo… yes I’m booing online. I can’t believe I decided to spend my summer in Detroit to watch this crap.

  96. Why would you pull Bonderman there? I know everyone is asking the same question, but come on…not at all surprised to see Santana still in there, though.

    This is a weird team…

  97. I like Cruceta’s stuff, but his command is too inconsistent to use in high leverage situations right now. Love his upside but I’d much rather see Lopez in that situation…

    well, actually I would have liked Bondo to stay in there, but Lopez seemed liked their best option out of the pen.

  98. Yep….sweep the Mariners…lose a series to Twins, and now on the verge of losing one to the Angels…..this team lacks consistency and is no better off today than they were at the beginning of the season…

  99. I am glad Bondo’s ERA went down, though. I’ve been sorely vexed by this of late.

  100. Cib, baseball was much better when you were a kid. Half these guys should not even be in the big leagues. This is watered down baseball.

  101. Santana might still get a win out of this! HAHAHA.
    HAHAHA. Man, I wonder if my laugh would be normal if baseball didn’t make me completely bat$#!t insane?!? HAHAHA.

  102. greg,

    Agree completely about Cruceta. Leyland should have gone with Lopez if he insisted on pulling Bonderman.

  103. Does anyone still think the Tigers will get over .500 this year?

    Just doing a poll………

    I honestly feel, think, opine that they will not……..likely they will finish dead last………

    By the way, the starter have suddenly been excellent….hitting has disappeared again……..relievers have not shown up this year. Zumaya and Rodney will make no difference. They will both be hurt walking out to the mound in their first appearance and be out for 6 more months. But they still get paid so what the heck……….

  104. Should have brought in Lopez in the 8th…or left Bonderman in….you know…somebody who can actually pitch….not Cruceta….

  105. Leyland doesn’t want to win, he just wants to extend it.

    Leyland on Extenze – “What can I say? It got bigger.”

  106. Look, I’ll hang around for extra innings, but only with assurances of a Tigers win. What’s it gonna be, people?

    How in the world is Santana still in? I guess I was so excited about Bonderman I forgot that the Tigers can’t hit.

  107. I am Booing Loudly not the players but Jim Leyland. He has a pattern of pulling his starters so they don’t lose games. Bonderman deserved the chance to win that one. If you going to change pitchers why pring in Cruceta who constantly throws that splitter in the dirt. You are asking for a wild pitch. I think Leyland is the most under performing person out there. My 14 year old even said why Cruceta with men in scoring position.
    Granderson needs to step it up period.

  108. the crowd is booing because lopez keeps stepping off.

    hey angel fans, if your punk manager didn’t insist in sending every other baserunner on an attmepted steal, we wouldn’t have to step off and delay the game. so how about booing your own manager?

  109. Sean, I hate to disappoint you…I want them to win very badly….but I deeply expect them to lose. The Tigers just do not win these kinds of games. Or have you not been watching?

    Look at this…….Lopez has walked two winning runners.(one is enough of course) Game over!

  110. Actually, Dave, I think a lot of the volume tonight was from a lot of positive back and forth earlier. It was fun while it lasted. Now the Tigers need to win. For vindication.

  111. Sky,
    Yes, I think the Tigers will finish above .500. They will take off once Leyland is fired and Shef released…

  112. …and then gave up the winning hit to Matthews.

    well, at least I didn’t have to stay up late to watch this trash.

  113. I don’t know why I watch this bull crap anymore….It’s the same thing over and over….They absolutely rock teams like Seattle and you think they have some momentum, but they don’t. This team is done for the season and actually have been done for a few weeks. I just cannot believe Leyland when he says this team will start playing better. Honestly, enough is enough. Honestly, in my opinion, I think it is time to start cutting some of the salary by dumping some of these guys and start planning for next year. And I am really starting to doubt the abilities of Leyland….That was such a bad call to bring in Cruceta instead of leaving in Bonderman….

  114. Ouch. I’m about ready to call for Leyland’s head. He can’t motivate his hitters and he can’t manage his bullpen.

    That said, some of this loss has to be blamed on the offense. 3 hits is embarrassing.

    Also, check out my first post (first one of the game…)

  115. Mark

    I accept your offer of a future Tigers win. Looks like an offer I can’t refuse.

  116. I have a new policy, at least for a while. I am no longer watching this team live. I am recording games on my DVR and if I see they won I will watch the game. I simply can’t take games like this any more. Frankly, it looks like this will free up a lot of time for me….

  117. Post game wrap up will be done shortly. Is there anyone good at making websites and would like to make one for free for me? I’m going to go legit with the thing.

  118. This is really sad and tragic…..too many nice people getting hurt…..just on account of baseball.

  119. How good does Bondo have to pitch to get a W ? I guess if he just resolves to throw a no-hitter thru 9 he stands about a 50% chance at picking up a W

    That’s back to back to back impressive outings squandered

  120. whats that 0-20 when scoring runs or less now? This one was really frustrating.

    And who the heck is Sean Rodriguez?! the comes in hitting something like 2 for his last 30, gets 2 hits, we walk him and his .140 batting average and he scores 2 of the 3 runs. Unreal.

    As I said very frustrating tonight.

  121. This is pathetic. Jim Leyland should be shown the door. He has mismanaged this group from the get go this year. I have been thinking this for 3 weeks. The last 2 nights should be wins. He is solely to blame.

    I’m sorry Jim but this is not a game it’s a business. You talk about calling guys out, you should apologize to the team and to all the fans for this one. Our defense gave everything tonight, had a 2 run lead against a very good pitcher and Bonderman was pitching the game of his season. You know the pen has confidence issues. Bonderman’s pitch count is still very low and he’s been around the plate like nobody’s business (For a Tiger). I didn’t think their could be a more heart wrenching loss, after last nights. The only redeeming factor is you didn’t make us wait until extra frames.

  122. Well, I’m sorry. Just sorry. Like the Tigers.

    Having followed this game (sort of) from start to finish, I understand better than I have before the frustration with Leyland and his pitching moves. Does he just not answer questions about it, or does no one in the Detroit media call him on it?

    We’ve got to find something to rally around. Eiher that or break out the gallows humor, full-blown. Do we have to be 12 games under to go the way of Mariners fans, or can we start now?

    Hey, Dave – the Yankees may have been 21-29, but they were never 21-31. Lame joke.

  123. I think I need a break from this team…No more Tigers until the Wings and Pistons are done. I just can’t take it anymore, I am regreting my switch to Direct TV and buying the Extra Innings package. I’d watch the Mariners, but they are almost as bad. At least I don’t care nearly as much if they lose.

  124. There is an element of Flagellantism here… enduring these games night after night is kind of a self-inflicted torture. I may be with JML for a while until the wounds heal. This was just brutal.

    This game was rated NC-17 folks.

  125. Well… Sheffield is on the DL. Inge was at 3B, and maybe he’ll just stay there, kind of accidental-like. Can’t risk irritating Carlos’s buddies. Larish is here, so maybe there is some acknowledgment going on that there will indeed be a 2009 season. So there is some interest amidst the despair. And how about Bonderman. That’s something Io hang your hat on. Joyce? Well, they were patient enough with Jacque Jones with less cause. What Billfer says about the inside curve makes me think he’ll be going down, but I rather hope he won’t have to. Can’t a team full of professional hitters like Guillen and Sheffield help the kid?

  126. GOODNESS…FSN guy just asked Leyland how tough was it to pull Bondo at 83 pitches…Leyland’s response – “no brainer.”

  127. Billfer, can you create a No Whining Section for those of us that want to share the ups and downs of a game without the ridiculous hyperbole?

  128. Jim Leyland, on being asked about his decision to pull Bonderman after 83 pitches: “No brainer. No brainer.”


  129. slashpyne since you have MLBEI you might want to start checking out the Rays games, I hear they actually win!

  130. Kathy

    Team (Tiger) chemistry or message board chemistry? I thought we were great tonight. We just played fundamentally good weblog. If we keep this up, the Tigers are going to become a mere distraction. And maybe that’s for the best.

  131. Jeff M,
    I’ve been posting on this site since at least 2005, and this is the first year I have really felt like whinning!

  132. i just read all the comments and am happy to see i’m not the only one upset with leyland’s handling of bonderman tonight. out after only 83 pitches in the 8th? are you kidding me? yes, he got into a jam, but he was dealing all night. leyland needed to show him he’s confident in his stuff and give him the chance to get out of it. if he couldn’t and took the loss, so be it. then again, we’d all be saying he left him in too long.

    but god bless scioscia for leaving santana in the game. that’s what a real manager does. fire leyland.

  133. Slash, you’re fine. I don’t feel good about this team either, so I don’t expect anyone to be happy. It’s the half-a-dozen or so people that only post when they’re predicting failure, moaning about failure, and demanding that we release 80% of the payroll.

  134. Kathy

    Well, think about Maggs instead. I’ve been meaning to ask you to lighten up on the “Magglio is a real man” stuff. We’re all starting to experience feelings of inadequacy now because of it. I used to have hair that long!

    Seriously, you mentioned something about Magglio as a hitter recently. I think he’s the best hitter the Tigers have had since Al Kaline. I hope he stays healthy and sticks around for a long time, because he’s just plain good.

  135. God, when things are going wrong, then things are flat-out going wrong. The Angels are the worst team to have to play in the midst of a losing month.

    This is a red hot pitching staff. The Angels have won 6 of their last eight while averaging about 2.6 runs per game during that span. That is unbelievable. They have 10 wins this month where they have scored less than 5 runs. The Tigers have only one of those all season.

    Angels are the anti-Tigers right now. Everything is going right. Even when things go wrong, everything is going right.

  136. What scares me to death Sean, is that there was an article in the paper talking about what if they break up the team who would go, who would stay…..that kind of thing. An anonomous insider from the Tiger organization said Ordonez would go because he has the most value. Just can’t bear to think of Maggs on another team.

  137. Mike R, at first I thought that was the title of a short film project (it would make a good one). I also used to think you were exaggerating about Leyland. Maybe not.

    Might I suggest “Jim Leyland: Dream Weaver” instead? That way you could use the song (by permission, of course) and alter the lyrics slightly.

    Oooh, Dream Leyland
    Bonderman must come out – he’s throwing strikes
    Oooh, Dream Leyland
    I believe we need Lopez in the ninth


  138. And I’m sorry about the Beatles reference earlier. This is not a team of Ringos, this is all Pete Best and Billy Preston.

  139. I’d hate to see Maggs go too.

    But this season and this team has been a disaster, and there seems to be a remote chance that they can turn it around. The team went for broke with the off season trades and contracts and everything that could have possibly gone wrong has gone wrong.

    Now that the season is a bust, Tigers have got to change course and repair the damage to their farm system after an off-season of bad trades. If the Tigers can truly get something of high value for Ordonez, then I think they have to do it. This is a very bitter pill to swallow to think that a couple months of bad baseball can destroy the dreams and reasonably high expectations for the immediate future of the team. But what else is there to do?

    Also, I think they need to trade Polanco and Cabrera in effort of rebuilding. As long as they can get prospects of high value, the Tigers should definitely do it.

  140. Kathy, it’s hard for me look at Magglio Ordonez as a commodity like that Tigers insider was. He seems to me like the guy you don’t let go. I’d part with everyone on the team besides Granderson and Verlander first. Polanco would also get to stay, just because I said so. OK, Cabrera, too, of course. When Ordonez got healthy and got going is when the Tigers got to the World Series, and he’s been going ever since.

  141. If Leyland was a place, we’d have to come up with a good motto.

    Welcome to Leyland, winning games at a .495 clip since 1986
    You’re entering Leyland County: Smoke’m if you got them. But we think you’ll be more inclined to drink heavily.
    Leyland, abandon all hope ye that enter.
    Greeting from Leylandville, where grown men sleep on their office couch.
    Entering Leylandia, Irrational left hand turns on red welcome!
    You’ve got a friend in Leylandburg. Well, at first, but not so much in the third.

  142. Also, I think Dave Dombrowski has to go. If for no other reason, a new GM would not have his judgement clouded by the tendency to save ones own reputation. Any GM in DD’s position might resist making changes that admit past blunders. A new GM can wipe the slate clean if need be.

  143. That’s a pretty hard knock on Best and especially Preston, Stephen.

    This team will/i> go round in circles, but I’m not so sure about the fly high like a bird up in the sky part. That’s because they got a dance that ain’t got no steps.

    Well… nothin’ from nothin’ leaves nothin’. I think they’re soldiers, in the war on OPS.

  144. Preston could play the keys, that’s for sure! Just like Inge can pick it at third. But ask him to put together a cohesive solo album/500 ab season and he cries just like a little girl.

    And I pronounce this metaphor irrevocably broken.

  145. I think the Tigers name has to go. If for no other reason, a new team name would not have its judgement clouded by the tendency to save ones own reputation. Any team with an old name might resist making changes that admit past blunders. A new team name can wipe the slate clean if need be.

    I propose the Lake Michigan Loons.

  146. Time to go to bed when you misspell an html tag. Good night!

    Funny, Stephen.

    Yes, Kathy, they can still turn it around. Hope is crueler than despair.

    No one’s going anywhere, Chris. But I know how you feel.

  147. “There’s still time to turn it around.”

    There is. And the starting pitching seems to have turned the corner.

    But there is something about this season that tells me that is isn’t going to happen. There just always seems to be something that goes wrong. When the hitting is going, starting pitching is struggling. When starting pitching is doing well, then the offense disappears. If the offense gets enough runs and the starting pitching is locked in, then the bullpen has a melt down. Rarely are all the aspects of the game going right at the same time.

  148. So Leyland will pull Bondo when he’s pitching great with a pitch count in the 80s and then leave Verlander in to “get a win” when hes well over 100. I don’t get it.

  149. “But there is something about this season that tells me that is isn’t going to happen. There just always seems to be something that goes wrong. When the hitting is going, starting pitching is struggling. When starting pitching is doing well, then the offense disappears. If the offense gets enough runs and the starting pitching is locked in, then the bullpen has a melt down. Rarely are all the aspects of the game going right at the same time.”

    That’s the hallmark of a bad team. Bad teams are inconsistent.

    And sure, the starting pitching LOOKS like it has turned around, but so did the bullpen two weeks ago. And so did the hitting in the Texas series, NYY series and Seattle series.

    I don’t think the talent is necessarily bad, but this team sure is. Frustrating to say the least.

  150. The duo of Stephen and Sean pulled out a win in extra innings — I mean, a Billy Preston parody? Wow.

  151. Mike, I know all about the Great Lakes Loons. Easily the worst name in all of minor league baseball. They should have been named the Midland Isotopes

  152. “I know all about the Great Lakes Loons. Easily the worst name in all of minor league baseball. They should have been named the Midland Isotopes”

    This is a name I myself thought up once upon a time. They let people submit their choices for the team name and that was the best of the bunch? SERIOUSLY?!?!

  153. Last night the Royals tied the Twins with an inside the park homerun in the ninth inning — and still lost in extras. Ouch. Now, the Tigers loss last night hurt, and I’m not going to try to claim that another team’s pathetic loss makes ours less pathetic, but… I’m just sayin’.

  154. Dave BW, I don’t think we’re allowed to laugh at the Royals until the Tigers actually beat them once this year.

    If it was a Tiger who hit that 9th inning inside the park home run, Leyland would have pulled him for a pinch runner.

  155. I’m personally looking forward to the Jeff Larish Era. He’s been tuning up AAA pretty well.

  156. Chris in D

    So am I. I don’t enough about Larish to make a case, but I’ve been hoping for a while that the Tigers wouldn’t block a true IB prospect to keep Cabrera there. Cabrera to DH and Guillen traded, or Cabrera to 3B and Guillen to DH, have occurred to me. But I guess Larish would have to be the real deal real fast to justify any of that.

  157. Chris in D

    So am I. I don’t know enough about Larish to make a case, but I’ve been hoping for a while that the Tigers wouldn’t block a true IB prospect to keep Cabrera there. Cabrera to DH and Guillen traded, or Cabrera to 3B and Guillen to DH, have occurred to me. But I guess Larish would have to be the real deal real fast to justify any of that.

  158. Ron, I think Leyland would have waited until he rounded third at a good clip, and then had the pinch runner start over from home.

  159. I think Leyland just doesn’t believe in newfangled stats like “pitch count”. In his head, about an hour and fifty minutes into a game is the right time to pull a pitcher. Things like number of pitches, inning, walks, runs, Ks, and the like are nonfactors. He pulls when he’s tired’a lookin’ at ‘im.

    In all seriousness, for the first time I am on board with firing Leyland. His pitching and lineup decisions are ludicrous bordering on genuine sabotage. I don’t care how good he is in the clubhouse. Please find someone who sets up his team in a position to win, not lose. Matt Joyce in the lineup against a lefty pitching for a team that has noticed that if you don’t give him a fastball he swings and misses by about a foot is putting a guy in a position to fail. Watch the lineup tonight. I’ve got a hunch.

    One more little rant: No brainer? YOU DON’T HAVE AN EIGHTH INNING GUY!

  160. I have a solution to this Leyland mess. Sadly, he will not be fired because he’s Dombrowski’s guy, and DD will not be fired because he’s Ilitch’s guy, so getting rid of anyone is out of the question.

    However, we can add somebody, so I’ll borrow from Bill Simmons. We can hire a “Director of Common Sense” to sit next to Leyland in the dugout and walk out to the mound with him. Leyland is great in the clubhouse keeping players lose (er, loose), so let’s continue to utilize that skillset. But the DoCS has veto power over any and all strategic/managerial/lineup/in game decisions that Leyland makes. Leyland wants to go to Cruceta in the 8th last night? The DoCS would chime in: “no, Jim. Your starter is at 85 pitches and you only need to get the next 2 guys out. Your bullpen is cashed from last night’s marathon, and the last time you put Cruceta in a high leverage situation he sh*t the bed and gave up a grand slam in a tie ballgame. Therefore, you will leave Bonderman in, as he’s your best chance for success at this point. It’s not about avoiding Bondo getting tagged with the loss, Jim. It’s about your team’s best chance to win the game, and your current pitcher gives you that.” And Leyland would sit back down while Bondo gets a groundout and a flyout to escape with a 2-1 lead, setting it up for Jones in the 9th.

    Here’s the kicker: the DoCS needs to have no managerial experience, just a deep knowledge for baseball and an knack for not blowing himself or his team up at every opportunity. He would understand matchups only to the extent that they make sense, and he could be replaced at the whim of the posters on this board.

    I think we need to move on this, people. Anyone want to apply?

  161. Caberra is younger than Larish, and already proven at the MLB level. Larish seems to be the only position prospect player we have ready to come up, so bring him up. I don’t like the idea of Caberra at DH, let him play 3rd or Left, in that order, if he can.
    I was holding out hope for the season, but I have resigned myself to the fact that they just can’t seem to put it together. Now we still try to win and showcase guys to trade, like Rogers, Pudge, Guillen, Renteria and Willis. The problem is that if Guillen, Renteria, and Willis are in multiyear deals they can opt out or demand a trade after they have been traded during the contract (correct me if I’m wrong).
    Groom Inge to take over full time behind the plate (maybe 100-120 games next year) and to finish out the season if we find a taker for Pudge (does he have a no or limited trade provision?). The problem is we really don’t have anyone else for behind the plate, Wilson is 35 years old if memory serves me, and that is if he comes back at all. Do we have SS in the system near ready to come up?
    Look, Granderson and Caberra will both pick up, and our starters look to have come around, our bullpen is still a question mark, but has been good enough that we would have won some games if our offense had been consistently better.
    Joyce looks to have hit the wall. We still need a Left fielder. How’s this:
    1. Granderson CF
    2. Palanco 2B
    3. Ordonez RF
    4. Guillen DH
    5. Caberra LF
    6. Larish 1B
    7. Hessman 3B
    8. Rodriguez C
    9. Renteria SS

    I still think you try and trade Pudge for prospect SS and/or backukp backstop and play Inge at C batting 8th or 9th.

  162. “We can hire a “Director of Common Sense” to sit next to Leyland in the dugout ”

    Indeed. Or we could call him a “bench coach” 🙂

  163. Sean —

    My intent was not that we should laugh at the Royals (I’m actually a Royals fan — if you think you’ve got it bad, imagine the emotional burden I carry), but rather to point out a loss that must have been even more collectively painful than that suffered by this fanbase last night.

  164. Nice work, Neal, but Cabrera is about as slow as they come and just can’t cover ground in LF at this point. No chance I see them moving him from 1b.

    Which means either Larish or Guillen (or some platoon split) has to DH, since Guillen’s knees are shot and he can’t play the field. Personally, I’d like to see Inge at third since ML-ready 3b are harder to find than catchers. We’ll have to address the catching issue in the offseason, and I have no idea how to do that. It seems every team is looking for catching help.

    I don’t think Hessman is the answer at 3b, he’s having a great year at Toledo, but his career numbers really suggest this is an abberation. He’s a career .230 hitter in the minors with a .754 OPS. He’s also 30 years old and extremely unlikely to get any better. You have to play the heavy odds here and think he’s not going to contribute consistently in the majors.

    My guess is Renteria’s option won’t be picked up, so we’ll need a SS next year as well, and Rogers and Pudge have virtually no trade value. There’s a solid core of Granderson, Cabrera, Verlander, etc. that we can build around, but it’s going to be tough to shed some of these veterans. I think we’re pretty well stuck with what we have.

  165. I knew someone would raise that point, Dave, which is why I insisted that it be an individual with no managing experience (essentially just a fan) so that we get away from the groupthink that managers and bench coaches inevitably flock to.

    Bench coaches don’t work because they’ve generally played or coached the game professionally their entire life. They just don’t know any better. We need an outsider.

  166. That was my feeling on Hessman as well, but if he’s hot, let him play now, and see if he can do it for a while up here. The same thing we did with Joyce and Thomas. The hope is that Hessman is a 12 hour advil and not a 4 hour tylenol or motrin like we’ve had. My guess is that is Hessman is basically Inge (only hot at AAA right now).
    We are stuck, but the core is good as you noted. I think Guillen is expendable as a DH, an if you can get something good for him in late July, take it. This will be about when we should know if Sheff is able to come back. Let’s point out the good, Renteria, Pudge, and Rogers all come off the books at the end of the year. I think Renteria has a buyout cost. They may not be worth much, but if we can get anything at all before the end of the season, we should take it.

  167. Is Kenny Lofton worth looking at? I know he seems like another old guy, but he still hits and still runs. Lofton in LF?

  168. He’s probably had them for 15 months, since that’s how long he’s refused to bend over more than 3-4 inches for ground balls.

  169. Mark, I like the DoCS idea. I nominate… Billfer? I’m not sure the rest of us could keep a straight face. What am I saying, “us”? I’M not qualified.

    Bonderman might have been the DoCS last night, and overruled. How did he look coming out? Was he pissed or resigned?

    Dave BW, I wasn’t being entirely serious about the Royals, but it’s interesting to know you’re a fan. So – well, how do you feel when the Tigers play the Royals? Sounds like you can’t lose. Not a bad plan.

    Hey, the Tigers have been in 2 close games in a row now. That’s a novelty. Lots of bright side to the last couple, really. Too bad about Leyland. I’m not getting it, either.

  170. Dave: Yeah, the Bench Coach is a novel idea, but we don’t even have one of those. Leyland refuses to call Gene Lamont his “bench coach” as he’s just this ‘sounding board’ or something stupid. Who would want to take advice in a high pressure situation to try to get the scope of all of his options when Leyland obviously, at his advanced age, has seen and done it all. Honestly, I don’t know how Jeremy Bonderman did not fire a fastball at Leyland’s face.

    Now, I say let Stephen and I be the Director of Common Sense.

  171. Sean: In a lot of ways, the Royals are a more compelling team, what with their dependence on farm talent (even if much of that farm talent can politely be described as mediocre). But as a Detroiter, hometown loyalty wins out whenever the Tigers play the Royals. Even when Greinke’s pitching!

    Oh, and Bonderman was pissed. Really pissed. Like World Series Game 4 pissed.

    Mike: Yeah, that was my point — I’d never thought about it all that much until recently, but perhaps his lack of a bench coach is more of a detriment than we realized.

  172. Billfer would be an excellent DoCS, in my opinion. I think otherse around here would agree.

    Now if we can only get Dombrowski to go along….

  173. There’s a guy on who calls himself the Strategy Expert, and I have a feeling he’d be perfect for this position…

  174. Remember, Mike R – as DoCS, you’d have to sit next to Leyland. (Smoke? You do now.) Could you handle that? You would get to overrule him, though. Sweet.

  175. Yeah, that was good, Greg. someone else posed the question earlier, what came first, the immobility or the hem—– (don’t make me try to spell that). (Any condition that’s hard to spell can’t be a good thing.)

    Seriously, I’m really wondering now whether playing 3B was really Guillen’s idea/preference at all. Did Leyland twist his – er, arm?

  176. I’ve always like Simmons’ VP of Common Sense idea. It would’ve been good to have one of those before DD pulled the trigger on the Renteria/Jurrjens deal. 22 year old pitching prospect. Aging SS. Kenny Rogers about to turn to dust and only on a 1-year deal anyway. Maybe it would’ve been smart to keep the kid in the fold? Someone needed to intervene there.

  177. Sean: I believe it’s hemmorhoids. The first thing I read about the Tigers this morning was Leyland’s quote about Guillen’s hemmorhoids being so bad that they needed to be lanced. At that point I nearly yakked my Pop Tart. Thanks, Skip.

  178. I could tolerate second hand smoke to be able to call Leyland dumb to his face. Hell, I’d crawl through broken glass or sit through an entire episode of “The View” to get that chance.

  179. Mark: I’d gladly be stuck on an elevator with Pauly Shore, Carrot Top and Fran Drescher if it landed me the chance to chain Ivan Rodriguez to a radiator in the clubhouse.

  180. Mike, you can be the manager, I’ll just be in the clubhouse working on team mojo through a series of team-building exercises culled from ‘Scared Straight’ prison programs.

  181. And Chris in Dallas makes the first Carrot Top reference of the year! Well done!
    Things always funny in a sentence no matter the situation:
    Carrot Top
    luna bars
    Tab, the diet soda

  182. Stephen, I like it. You take care of the part of the game that doesn’t have any influence on the outcome at all, and I’ll do the dirty work. 😉 haha.

  183. I”m all about the intangibles. I’d be giving Leyland a hotfoot just about now. Then i’d soak his cigarettes in water, let them dry out and put them back in the pack. i would then bribe the Tigers cameraman to zoom in on Leyland on the ramp as he smokes the wet tobacco. We would have a Youtube masterpiece.

  184. Yeah, good call on nixing the Jurrjens trade, although I don’t what the options would have been to fill the void at short. Maybe Florida could have thrown Hanley Ramirez in the deal, too (I joke, we’re bad enough defensively). It should be interesting to see how DD fills that spot, as well as catcher, next year.

    Simmons’ key point on this is that the DoCS has no inside team info. It’s simply to judge the reaction of the individual when making moves.

    “wait, you want to trade a serviceable young arm for a statue? and you plan on putting that statue on the field as your everyday shortstop? something’s not right here…”

    I think that would have sufficiently cancelled that deal.

  185. Chicago Mark: I’ll go on record with my solution to the SS quandry in ’09 (of course I’m not writing off ’08 or anything). Decline the club option on Zapatos Concretos and go after Rafael Furcal who will be a free agent. That’s the lefty hitting leadoff guy who steals bases for you. Although that might make too much sense…

  186. “Mark: I’d gladly be stuck on an elevator with Pauly Shore, Carrot Top and Fran Drescher if it landed me the chance to chain Ivan Rodriguez to a radiator in the clubhouse.”

    now that’s dedication, we may have a front-runner for the job.

    Pudge is my anti-Tiger. I mean, I love what he did for the franchise, but for the love of God, take a walk. He could make up for it with a solid SLG and high average when he was younger, but now that he’s a corpse, he can’t catch up to a big-boy fastball, so he really has no discernable offensive value (except the intangible “leadership”, which is really paying dividends this year. Tell you what: you take leadership, I’ll 9 take A-Rods, and we’ll play 100 games and see who wins.)

    anyway, anything that keeps pudge from batting above 8th in the order makes perfect sense to me, even if it involves chains and radiators.

  187. Good call, Chris, I was not aware Furcal is going to be a free agent. I forget what Senor Conctretos’ buyout is, but I would guess something llike $3-4 million, so we have to add that to whatever we offer any free agent to fill his position.

    Furcal is not spectacular offensively, but adds some speed (and thus balance) to the offense. Solid hitter, solid OBP, just not a lof of XBH and/or SLG. He’s above average defensively range-wise, generally catches what he gets to, and still has that good arm. Frankly, I don’t mind that guy hitting leadoff on my team. He makes almost $17 million this year, the last year of a 3 yr, $39 million deal. He’s also only 29. Given the premium position he plays, does he get $14-15 million per? Yikes.

  188. Yeah that’s what they get these days, Mark. You figure that Rogers’ salary is coming off the books as well as your anti-Tiger. Sheffield’s albatross will be gone after ’09, so they should have the money to make a pitch for him if they were so inclined. He would fill a lot of team needs: lefty (switch hitter, actually), speed, defense, and Granderson could be moved down in the order to where he really should be. My only concern would be that he’s hurt frequently…

  189. Yeah, he is hurt quite a bit, which is a concern. So the question becomes: if the deal is headed around, say $15 million per, PLUS the $3 million buyout, is he worth $18 million per season, or esentially $5 million MORE than Renteria, who has a $13 million option. That becomes a diffiicult question to answer, although you rightly point out that Rogers and Pudge come off the books also. Presumably those positions need to be filled, however.

    Very tough position to be in, and I don’t even know what the alternatives are. Santiago? Craig Wilson? The possibilities are endless…

  190. hey, great job everyone. We totally crushed this thread, a whopping 347 posts (including this one). As Sean C. pointed out, we had great thread chemistry last night and today and really put together a fundamentally strong piece of work. If only the Tigers could, well, never mind….

    Congrats to all!

  191. 300 or so posts ago, someone asked if anyone reads the game threads after the fact (Slashpyne?). Well, I just made my way through all 347! What an epic. The ups in the early innings, the downs with the loss, the slow decay into misery post game, and the slow lift into some seriously hilarious insights and ideas as the initial sting wore off. I missed the game, but got a totally surreal experience reading it back a day later. Thanks to everyone!

  192. I read something in Hardball Times or Baseball Prosceptus about SS age and fielding. It just noted the decline at age 26 or 28. I think getting Furcal is too expensive at his age and injury level. I’ve always felt you need a rangy SS, so I’m biased.
    Here’s an Idea, get a real fielding SS with lots of range to his right, and strong enough arm that the range doesn’t go to waste, then you can play Caberra at 3rd and leave 1st open for Larish.
    We could sign Bonds to play left and when Guillen is healed up they could both talk about what its like to play without Roids.

  193. Not to add a gratuitous post just to get us closer to 350 or anything, but:

    This DTW adds a lot to my enjoyment of the Detroit Tigers. When the Tigers aren’t so enjoyable, it substitutes for that enjoyment, I think. I come for information, insights, laughs, and camaraderie, not necessarily in that order.

    I read the game threads, in part, to get a view through others’ eyes what the game looked like (since I can’t watch), to get information I won’t find in the play-by-play transcript. But at least half the fun is the spontaneity of the group conversation, which is weird thing for a guy with a somewhat antisocial and strongly individualist bent to say, isn’t it?

    If I took the time to write “That’s funny” or “That’s interesting” every time I thought it… well, there’s just not enough time. So if you – like I do – sometimes wonder why a pretty good joke or a reasonable question/comment went ‘ignored,” it’s because there’s just too much going on here sometimes! But personally, I read everything, and I have a pretty good memory.

    I’m glad Mark in Chicago picked up and ran with my “we were good” thing. We were. If I hadn’t been following the game through the comments already, I’d be echoing what Ryan in Brooklyn was saying.

    We could get into a total self-referential thing here, you know. Trying to get a “win” with the thread, evaluating “prospects,” pondering the removal of certain posters from the “starting rotation” – use your imagination; pretty funny possibilities. I’m hoping we don’t, because I can’t be as late for work as I was this morning (DTW’s fault. completely) and expect to keep a job.

  194. I’d rather have Joyce/Thames or just Thames in LF than Bonds, Neal. What you say about SS makes sense, though my preference would be for the Tigers to go out and get a real third baseman instead, move Cabrera to DH, and – assuming Larish turned out to be for real fairly quickly – trade Guillen. Just the fact that I’ve had these thoughts makes me pretty sure it will never happen, though.

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