Game 2017.104: Tigers at Yankees

In case you haven’t heard the news, the Tigers have traded Justin Wilson and Alex Avila to the Cubs for two infield prospects, 3B/future DH Jeimer Candelario, and SS Isaac Peredes.

So far the Tigers have traded exclusively for infield prospects. I don’t have a problem with that; their minor league system is so weak that accumulating as many good prospects as possible is a good plan, regardless of position. That will all sort itself out.

What I don’t like is the Tigers getting rid of a very good relief pitcher, that only cost 2.8 million, and was under team control next year. One of the major reasons to sell right now for the Tigers is salary reduction, and this trade doesn’t do a whole lot in that direction. I have read some good viewpoints that point out that Justin might be overvalued—his numbers this season are almost the same as those throughout his career, but his success is magnified by his new role and his “saves” (which are overvalued), and in comparison to what he replaced. OK, I’m convinced. But even so it seems they could have worked out a better package, or waited until next season to move him.

As far as Alex goes, his performance has taken a dive in the last month. He is now once again the Alex we all knew. Still, you’d think the Cubs might have gone for Justin Wilson for the two prospects, and the Tigers gain nothing by getting rid of Alex this year (low salary, and his contract is up at the end of the season).

So I guess my overall evaluation of the trade? Eh, it’s OK. Ish.

Hicks is called up to replace Alex, Jimenez to replace Wilson. I expect to see Jimenez in the role previously played by Bruce Rondon. Shane Green, deservedly, is the new closer.

Today’s Lineup:

  1. Ian Kinsler, 2B
  2. Jim Adduci, RF
  3. Justin Upton, LF
  4. Miguel Cabrera, 1B
  5. Nick Castellanos, 3B
  6. Victor Martinez, DH
  7. Mikie Mahtook, CF
  8. James McCann, C
  9. Jose Iglesias, SS

Pitching: Michael Fulmer vs Severino

43 thoughts on “Game 2017.104: Tigers at Yankees”

  1. We can complain about Brad
    We complain about the Pen
    Right there is one of Th biggest reasons for this crappy year. VMart strikes out on a pitch in the dirt, bases loaded.
    Kins.. Casty.. VMart.. Miggy are down 80+ RBI.. Results trade JD, J Willie, AA… And Kins Casty, VMart, Miggy aren’t going anywhere……

  2. Agree with Coleman on JWillie. We are not known for producing good pen arms and JWillie was cheap and under our control for another year. A great prospect is still that, a prospect. If we had gotten someone that would fill a current need (manager comes to mind) I would feel better about it.

    1. I’m with you guys on the trade, without having looked into it too deeply. Seems like they could have held out for more… no particular salary reduction benefit aside from Wilson arbitration raise, big deal… no particular reason to get rid of either of these guys even in 2018 – what, are they “making room” for prospects they don’t have?

      On the other hand… if this is what it took to get the best and best-fitting prospects still “on the board,” why the hell not. I’d just as soon see a lot more of Hicks and less of Avila, and a lot more of Jimenez and a lot less of Rondon and AWillie. While they’re at it they could spare us Miggy and V-Mart and Kinsler more often. Gimme Hicks and Adduci and Machado. Enough of the guys who couldn’t get it up for 2017.

    1. Drafted, signed, developed by the Yankees themselves. What a bizarre way of doing things.

  3. The more I see of Mikie, the more I like him. Gets hit for the 2nd time and you can tell he is pissed. But he doesn’t charge the mound, he just seems mad because he waned to hit. A real class act.

    1. Yeah, what’s up with most of this charging the mound crap anyway? Pitchers miss their targets. Wouldn’t be a lot of home runs otherwise.

      1. My favorite mound charging ever was Gary Sheffield vs Fausto Carmona (if that’s even your real name! Ha, I knew it!). He didn’t charge the mound, but once he got to first, Fausto threw over to first, and THAT pissed him off. Then he charged the mound from first. Very interesting and original! but Fausto gave him a three stooges knuckles to the noggin treatment, and Brandon Inge ran out from the batters box and took down Victor Martinez, who later in the scrum wanted a piece of Inge, but was restrained by Miguel Cabrera. So many levels there!

        1. That description of Sheffield v. dba Carmona really rings a bell. (I see it’s all over YouTube.) I’m guessing someone on DTW linked to video way back when and I saw it that way.

          1. Watched something purporting to be top 10 MLB brawls. Heard some idiot announcer talking about how White Sox Pierzynski made a “good clean play” (not) crashing into the Cubs catcher and then go on about how brawls bring teams together and cement them, or something. Uh-huh. These brawls mostly look stupid.

            1. Then there was Porcello vs Youkilis, in which Inge rushes in from 3rd and takes down…I think Victor Martinez, again!

              1. Was t it like an 80mph change up that Porcello hit him with? Youkilis was crazy…and Porcello handled himself fairly well in that brawl, if I recall.

            2. Ha ha. More stupidity. Robin Ventura (White Sox seems to be in a lot of the vids) charges Nolan Ryan and gets punched out, quickly ends up outside the brawl that ensues. Ha ha. What a pretty boy.

              1. Youkilis. Nut job. Anyone who thinks they were plunked… there should be a training video. Watch Armando Benitez hit Tino Martinez, May 19, 1998. That’s a hatchet job. Anything less… say F*** like Mahtook did. Don’t waste everyone’s time.

    2. Mikie might be the real deal. He had a legendary high school career, and a great college career at a great school, and then could never get traction. But he obviously had the potential. There’s a chance he could be another JD Martinez story. He certainly plays with heart.

      1. Mahtook can be our Scrappy Guy. Does he really have the raw power of JD? How is he in CF, though, really? Maybe RF would be better?

        1. The defensive WAR numbers have him at the bottom of the team, which mystifies me, because that’s not what I see (that’s what’s keeping him off the Face of WAR). He seems to be above average in the field. I must be watching wrongly.

          1. Speaking of the WAR Faces… fully three of them are no longer on the team. Is it really fair to leave them there? It might be keeping Miggy off the board.

          2. And the lowest defensive WAR on the team belongs to Miguel Cabrera. I don’t see that either, I think his defense has been quite good. It makes me shrug.

            1. I think anyone who watches enough games closely enough – I used to – can trust their own judgment more than the numbers. Me, I’ve gotta assume that those defensive indicators really do come from people seriously analyzing zones and playability and such. Not hard to believe that Miggy doesn’t have amazing range. He’s got a great arm and makes smart plays… but I’ve seen a play or three this year where he’s handled throws (including pickoff throws) really badly. Probably doesn’t take too much of that at the 1B position to make you subpar.

  4. Miggy and VMart bat like they are 70 years old. Casty AND Kinsler lately play like they are 70 years old…

    1. Casty looked pretty lively getting that infield single.

      Seems like it was a game for the taking. Team LOB = 14. 3-13 RISP. Jeez-o-Pete. A little hiccup in the 4th aided by an error and it all blows up. Doesn’t seem like anyone was really giving up, though. Not even Miggy. Oh well, back at it tomorrow. Gotta reach 50 wins by September.

      Adduci is the man. Someone using my name was talking him down the other day.

    2. I disagree on Kinsler. he goes all out in the field. His approach at the plate has been sketchy, and you never know what you’re gonna get on the bases, but he still can play 2nd. Casty has the most triples ever for a 70 yr old. How can a guy get that many triples, when he has no clue (or ability?) how to run? That’s baseball!

      1. I must defer to you on Kinsler. Not watching the games except for bits and pieces, keep getting disappointed by his line in the box scores. I know he’s the man on D. So maybe they keep him around for 2018, or is this it?

        1. Sunday Kins blows a routine DP lazy effort to get to it. Today the 4th inning doesn’t happen if he doesn’t try and glove flip to Iggy in a ball right to him.. Huge errors because both were DPs. Seldom is he distracted in the field like he is often batting but Two days in a row now.. Like Kins, Miggy very seldom is not playing very solid D… U can count on one hand the number of plays for the whole year Miggy doesn’t make. Very very few…

  5. Miggy takes a 3-1 curveball breaks right down the middle while Miggy is backing out of the box. Betancourt throws the identical pitch and Miggy looks like he is sleeping and wanders away with a called K….

  6. The only question to be answered this year is if we’ll be able to hold off the White Sox if they try to make a run out of last place.

  7. I don’t know if Miggy is pissed because his buddy Alex was traded,. But he absolutely Quit .. I have watched in at least 1000 games. He quits in games every once in awhile.. Today is one of them.

    Meanwhile Kins and VMart strand 11…

    1. Whatever is bothering Miggy I still say put him on 10 day DL while medical folks check everything. Day in, day out something is not right. Someone pointed out that if the situation in Venezuela is so bad, why is Altuve headed toward MVP?

    2. I believe you, Jud, I’ve seen it. He’s a moody guy. This is the flip side of the fun-time clown he often is. Venezuela, whatever. Everyone has some kind of Venezuela going on.

        1. Well, I don’t know if I’m living *in* it. But it is too close for comfort. Definitely affecting my batting average.

  8. I think the main thing is that the Tigers just beat the Astros in the ALCS, and the World Series against the Dodgers is set to open August 18, all games to be played in Detroit, which is only fair. The schedule of exhibition games in the meantime will be a good warmup, and the Tigers took some leisurely batting practice tonight. Runs were not the objective, nor was putting the ball in play. It’s like spring training again, with several players out for the WBC, or something like that.

  9. The strangest one to me is VMart. Used to be near impossible to strike out. Now this year swings at crap pitches constantly. Takes a ton of good pitches early in the count.. And as great a hitter as he is.. Was.. You’d think he could place the ball around the shift easily.. Yet he only does it occasionally. He has struck out 90 times in his long career only twice last year and he will this year.

    1. Jud, I’m sure I know what’s gong on with V-Mart because it has happened to me. It’s technical name is: GETTING OLDER! It happens.

  10. I was working back when AlGore or somebody invented computers and the internet. The operative acronym then was GIGO. It meant Garbage In, Garbage Out. That is why I take all the analytics business with a grain of salt. Yes they have a place and can be useful but it can not replace human intelligence. One problem is that humans are not all equally intelligent or (perhaps more important when managing people) perceptive.

    WAR is just another stat that the user has to consider but not live or die with. I always think of fielders with the range of Nick and wonder how many errors are charged to fielders who get to balls that go by Nick as clean hits.

    How many of you would bench Mikie in favor of “Fingers” Collins because his WAR is better? Then come the exceptions. One of the best and important catches I have witnessed (on live TV) was made in the 1969 World Series by Ron Swaboda a Mets outfielder with the grace and skills of our own Steven Moya.

    1. But Tony, analytics *is* human intelligence. Product of, used by, only comprehensible to… humans.

      I’m not in love with WAR as a stat. We have fun with it here in how it is presented on the Baseball Reference website, but regardless of how one views it as a measure, a glance at the Top 12 on any team and few would dispute that, yeah, those are indeed the top contributors to winning. The thing I find a bit hard to grasp or embrace is the R in WAR. Replacement, as in replacement level player. A bit of a hazy concept, to me.

      I think everyone can stop calling Collins “Fingers” now. Or start calling some others I won’t name “Quitter,” “ADD on base,” etc.. Flipping the bird to a booing crowd isn’t the most scandalous thing I can think of. He wasn’t a jerk before that and hasn’t been once since. Why is it so hard to forgive?

      What gets players benched shows up in WAR – no one would make any surprise decisions based on numbers from nowhere. If Collins had a greater WAR than Mahtook, he’d still be on the team. Speaking of Collins vs. Mahtook, depends on which versions when. Both had their ups and downs. Mahtook was batting .212 with a .257 OBP into June, through his first 25 games. Collins was at .256 and .322 through his first 25 before he sunk like a stone. They’re pretty similar players. I guess we’ve seen what there is to see with Collins, and maybe there’s more in store with Mahtook, but no one was talking about Mikie’s great attitude or potential before he started hitting. No one is complimenting Avila on “great find,” either, for Mahtook or any of the so-called Toledo boys.

      What you mention about fielders with range getting charged with more errors is the very reason more advanced defensive metrics came into being.

      Sure, guys who aren’t very good defensively most of the time can make great plays. Andrew Romine can hit home runs, too. Thanks for the link, though.

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