Let the offseason begin

by billfer on October 30, 2008 · 66 comments

in Free Agents,Roster Management

With the World Series officially over after the longest game 5 ever, I half (actually more than half) expected the Tigers to make a trade today.  When I saw a press release come across I thought my intuition was correct.  Instead it was a compilation of roster moves and the hiring of a bullpen coach.

The Tigers rehired Jeff Jones to be the bullpen coach after firing him at the end of the season.  I don’t find it that surprising or awkward.  Jones had been all but assured a role in the organization and his firing was more related to the dismissal of Chuck Hernandez.  I’d imagine Rick Knapp had the freedom to look elsewhere, but decided to stick with Jones.

The Tigers also announced that Dane Sardinha and Gary Glover had been outrighted and both decided to  become free agents.  As I imagined when Virgil Vasquez was claimed, he was one of several the team were pruning.  Eddie speculates on the motivation for the Tigers keeping Eddie Bonine and Mike Hessman on the big league roster.

Another spot on the 40 man roster was freed when the Tigers formally declined Edgar Renteria’s option.  This is hardly news though since Dave Dombrowki indicated as much a month ago. 

Declaring free agency was Freddy Garcia.  Garcia is still in the long toss stage after leaving the last game of the year with tightness in his greater shoulder area.  Don’t read too much into this as it is merely a formality. 

In addition to the Tigers getting their house in order, there is speculation about potential targets.  Jason Varitek’s name has gained some steam.  Mostly due to a Ken Rosenthal report that Scott Boras is shopping Varitek to Detroit.  But I have to agree with the consensus that this would not be a good thing.

Now Chad Cordero on the other hand…that’s worth considering for the right price.  And while the Tigers, like many teams, would be hesitant to offer much in the way of guaranteed money they can offer a wide open bullpen situation.

 
 

{ 66 comments }

Tim D October 30, 2008 at 11:56 pm

Cordero has given up 21 homers in the last two full seasons. That’s pretty horrible. His numbers have been so-so since his big year in 2005. Washington could have moved him several times over the last few years but always asked for the moon and the stars, Now they release him. I would stay away unless it was a 1 year make good deal. I don’t see an obvious trade out there. I would like to see them go after a catcher, maybe Laird, and a young SS. But I think they will go for stopgaps. I’d prefer to fill the bullpen from within.

Mark in Chicago October 31, 2008 at 9:36 am

Varitek has leadership,experience, and intangibles. So much so that he “leadershipped” and “experienced” his way to a 220/313/359 season for a rousing 73 OPS+. Plus he’ll be 37 years old next season. I agree with billfer I hope they don’t touch this guy, even to discuss a part-time role.

I’d rather re-sign pudge than sign Varitek.

Cordero is more intriguing, if only because he’s a capable body in the pen. Plus he’s only 26. Big downside is the injury history, since it’s not like he was overused in Washington.

Chris in Nashville October 31, 2008 at 12:07 pm

Ahhhh….I LOVE that the 2008 season is over and that we can at least have some optimism again about our Tigers.

I’m with the majority…Varitek doesn’t make much sense (especially with Boras wanting too many years and DD’s first born son in the deal most likely). Chad Cordero, eh, better than we have now, but not great. Might be what we have to settle for though.

Smoking Loon October 31, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Went over to motownsports.com yesterday to see if I could find any plausible trade/acquisition suggestions. I was disappointed.

I wonder if something similar (in one respect) to the Cabrera deal is going to happen. I mean where a player you can’t pass up, or can hardly pass up, becomes available, except that he doesn’t play a position you’re looking to fill. Like a CF or 2B or even 1B. Causing another position shuffle. Just an idle thought.

Smoking Loon October 31, 2008 at 1:00 pm

I’m glad the Tigers seem to be hanging onto Bonine and Hessman. I’m all for it.

Eric Cioe October 31, 2008 at 6:09 pm

I’m beginning to become sure that Magglio will be traded. Possibly Atlanta, possibly the Dodgers (if they miss out on Manny). You have to admit – even though he’s 35 and declining a bit, he’s got to be an attractive option for a weak-offense team. His contract isn’t going to look ridiculous after this offseason is over. $18 million in 09, and $15 in each of 10 and 11. Manny’s going to get a lot more than that. Burrell will too. No way you get him for 3 years and that relatively low dollar amount on the open market.

RCFOM October 31, 2008 at 7:04 pm

I also agree on Cordero and depending on the price should for sure go after him. Plus we offer a good situation for him with playing time and a pitchers park.

Smoking Loon October 31, 2008 at 9:51 pm

‘I’m beginning to become sure that Magglio will be traded.”

I certainly hope he isn’t traded, unless it brings the Tigers a quality starter and a quality bullpen guy, or top shelf guys at SS and C, or – ideally – all four. Maggs for prospects and maybes doesn’t interest me. That is a huge hole in production to fill.

David November 1, 2008 at 3:04 am

Depends what prospects for Maggs

If they were to replenish their farm stock with a bunch of first rounders, or some guys who are under 22 and have been tearing up the minors I’d do it maybe depending on who they were

They could replace his production pretty closely at the dish somewhat by many different players, on that comes to mind is 35 year old Raul Ibanez who would have to DH, therefore they stick Sheff in RF or w/e

They def. need a top-tier short stop

OH wait

if they were smart

they’d stick Inge there like I have said for about 3 years now, and don’t give me that baloney (that I’ve heard from some) that he can’t play there, he sure as heck can and would be tops in the league

You’ve already got the guy, and have given him a starting role

Let him take that spot since the market is weak in that area at present and go after Hank Blalock or Joe Crede (the latter give you excellent D and similar pop to the former but less production)

neither are a guarantee of health but if it were me I’d go after Crede

Then another thing after fixing the left side of the infield (moving Inge to SS and picking up either Crede or Blalock) and POSSIBLY trading Magglio would be to go out and get a pinch runner or two

In my opinion this is a necessity

Fine have a bunch of slow guys or non buners on the team excluding Granderson to some extent… But when we need a run late to tie it or go ahead (and this situation will arise aplenty in ’09), you want to be able to put in a fast guy for Maggs or Cabrera or Polanco to be able to put pressure on the other team and score and win.

Here I’d look for an in-house option —– Freddy Guzman who stole 71 bases this past year in AA and AAA and 56 the year prior – he (or someone with his speed) is a necessity especially for this team

An outside shot at this could be Wilken Ramirez if you wanted to go in house, his bat is progressing nicely and looks to have decent speed, but if I were the Tigers, I’d def. have a spot for Freddy, what he brings is just too valuable in tight ballgames late

So far Inge to SS, sign Crede for third, bring Guzman up as a speedy pinch runner late

Now catcher

this is where I’m undecided right now

My gut tells me to go with Ryan as he has been good in 2008 in both Detroit and at Toledo and Erie offensively, however he struggled quite a bit in the past and IMO its hard to have another guy (in addition to maybes such as Inge and Sheffield) post an OPS of .700 or lower which is conceivable for Ryan.

You’ve got to watch how he and Skelton develops in Spring Training, but I also believe you need to go out and at least find a backup.

Resigning Pudge at a reduced price is a possibility if he’s up for it.

If not I don’t know who you go after… Ausmus, Blanco, Varitek all these guys are excellent “catchers” but terrible hitters unless Ryan is a horrid catcher and possibly Skelton I wouldn’t go after one of these guys unless it was for backup.

Now the fun and most important stuff PITCHING

One guy I see as somewhat of a must sign if he is into it(Michigan native and former Tiger) is John Smoltz

There are a few reasons

1) He is stellar as a starter or reliever
(great flexibility and possible closer)
2) He has one of the highest ERA+ of any pitcher
3) He has pitched well as of late and has not tailed off so to speak
4) He is a veteran who will also help fill the shoes of Rogers and Jones
5) His ERA HAS BEEN UNDER 3.50 for 13 straight years – he knows what the “h3ll” he’s doing and can do it well consistently
6) He has been relatively injury free and posts great K numbers and more importantly usually leads pitches around 200 innings if healthy and a starter

another guy to consider would be Wood, or possibly (unsure on this one) Ben Sheets

you’ve got Verlander, Bonderman, Galaraga (and already their are ?) Miner, Willis, Garcia, Robertson AAA or AA flavor of the month

and thats assuming health

I think you have to go out and get at least one John Smoltz or Ben Sheets type guy (because there is a good chance of injury or suckiness between those guys)

Of course another thing to consider is that this organization probably will bring up Porcello and Perry (if not others) around July or August which could provide some relief (or they could get shelled and sent down)

Hopefully Zumaya gets it together and is smart!

So in sum

I think
Possible trade of Magglio for top multiple top prospects (if so sign Ibanez and switch him and Shef defensively)

Inge to SS, get Crede to play 3rd, call up Guzman as necessary pinch runner, see what Ryan’s got go after Pudge on a reduced salary (if not make sure to get a good backup defender at catcher)

Pitching

Get John Smoltz to solidify rotation (be an ace horse and veteran leader – ie be Rogers of 2006 if not better) plus possible pen relief

possibly go after Derek Lowe or Wood or Prior or Sheets to provide more depth

watch for Perry and Porcello to be called up in late 2009

hope for injury free, luck and career years from quite a few of these aging stars

Smoking Loon November 1, 2008 at 1:56 pm

David, if the farm system is to be replenished though trade, there are a number of more subtle ways and expendable players than in dealing Ordonez.

The Tigers really can’t afford to have a guy around just because he can be a pinch runner. Clevlen’s a possibility, but he has to hit and hit better than Thomas, and if he makes the team out of spring training, he’s got about 2 months to prove himself.

It would be nice if they’d try out Inge at SS. But currently, he is not a SS. And we really can’t assume that he would be good there, as likely as it seems. 3B and SS are two very different positions.

I’d as soon go with Hessman at 3B than the walking injury that is Joe Crede, if it came to that.

Lowe yes, Smoltz and Sheets and Wood and Prior, no. No more old and/or injury-prone guys!

David November 1, 2008 at 3:58 pm

Loon

1) I would only deal Ordonez if we got at least 3 either first rounders/guys “tearing it up in the minors” in return (ie check out Tampa’s prospects they have quite a few in the top 100)

More expendable than Ordonez? OK lets go trade away our crap for other teams cream…

More expendable… who do you propose trading?

Sheffield (I wish he was cut) who are you going to get in return? who is going to pick up that contract?

Inge?? again who are you going to get? who is going to pick up the contract?

I don’t think you want to trade Cabrera or Granderson

You sell high and buy low

They can’t afford a pinch runner? What? You must either not understand how baseball is played or must have a man (I’m assuming you’re a guy) crush on Brent or Clete

1) This team is very slow
2) This team is old
3) We have enough offense
4) Mr. Speedster can play D
5) Mr. Speedster comes into games that are tied or within a run or two, he finds a way to dramatically increase our chance of scoring the tying run

#5 will occur in at minimum 1/3 of our games next year

The Tigers have already given their OF spots to Guillen, Granderson and Ordonez and their DH spot to Sheffield

I am operating under that premise

Having one crazy fast guy to score is soooo much more valuable than either Mr. Thomas or Mr. Clevlen can bring

If they cut Sheffield (which I have been crying for on this site since they got him) then Clevlen could have worth, but still not as much as Guzman

I assume he will be good there (he has played there briefly in ST and in college)

If he can be the best defensive third baseman I think he can play SS and play it well

Crede is damn good, but is an injury risk

Hessman is another Thames or Sheffield at the plate something we don’t need

Old and injury prone? fine

lets go with Bonderman (injury prone and sucks when pitching with an injury) Willis (injury prone and sucked) Robertson (injury prone and sucks) Garcia (injury prone)

http://www.youtube……………………com/watch?v=8S4zE-0wlNM

Eric Cioe November 1, 2008 at 5:12 pm

Nate Robertson is injury prone?

David November 1, 2008 at 8:59 pm

Well wasn’t Nate taken out last year multiple times because of what the Tigers related to the fans and papers as a minor injury?

It seems it really was some mechanical/mental problem

He isn’t injury prone like say Zumaya or Bonderman

is Smoltz though?

is Granderson for missing a month 1 year?

what lets us lable someone as injury prone?

is Sheffield injury prone at this stage? or does playing through injuries not give him that label?

It doesn’t matter to me

I say go out and get as much cheap quality depth AS POSSIBLE

The three given spots in the rotation(JV, JB, AG) are questions marks even if health is a given (which it isn’t) the other two spots are much less sure assuming you go with guys we’ve got (Willis/Nate/Miner)

I’m don’t care if a guy is injury prone go out and get him

If he is injury prone,….all the better you get multiple good players at reduced prices due to that

billfer November 1, 2008 at 10:12 pm

Robertson missed a couple weeks in 2007 with a dead arm. I think he left a NL start after tweaking his back on a swing, but otherwise he’s been healthy.

Yes, Sheffield is injury prone at this point in his career.

As for Guzman, yes he’s fast. He also has a decent eye at the plate. I don’t know anything about his defense except that he’s fast. If we’re talking in terms of just speed though in a pinch running role, I don’t know that he is sooo much more valuable than a Clevlen or Thomas. Than Sean Casey yes, but it’s not like Clevlen or Thomas are slow (although Thomas was an extremely tentative baserunner in his time with Detroit and his speed did him little good).

Unless they are going to go to an 11 man staff, I agree that they can’t carry a pinch runner since they’ll be punting offense at third base already, and they’ll likely be doing the same at shortstop, plus catcher is a mystery. A pinch hitter who can hit probably carries more value to the team.

Josh M November 2, 2008 at 12:38 pm

David,

I like your list of free agent pitchers we should target, but I would add a couple to the shopping list:

Pedro Martinez
Jon Garland
Nelson Cruz

I think the smartest move would be Smoltz, but I think Cruz would be a great pick up and I think we have a great chance at him because assuming he would want to be a closer we can offer that to him. A lot of teams will want him as a setup guy.
As far as Freddy Guzman we for sure need some speed on this team, but I dont know how much good it would do us because Leyland just isnt that kind of coach. Look at our stats this year! Our leading base stealer was Grandy and his HUGE total was 12! Thats just crazy 12 stolen bases leads a team? That has to change or its gonna be another long year.
I for the life of me cant figure out why everyone has such a big problem with Sheff. Yeah he has a big mouth and gets on my nerves, but the man can hit! He is finally the healthiest he has been in a Tigers uniform and everyone says cut him. Last year still recovering from injuries he hit 19 home runs. I say he is in the final year of his contract he is going to have a huge year for that reason alone, as long as he stays healthy.
One last thing Tigers need to get some trade value for Thames. I love the guy and think he deserves to be playing everyday, but Leyland isnt going to do that he has had 3 years to do it and hasnt yet meaning he isnt going to. This is a perfect example of selling while the market is high. Thames hit 25 home runs last year while getting a TON less at bats than Cabrera and Maggs. Kinda reminds me of when Inge hit 27 that one year then nothing since. There is no promise that Thames will hit even 20 next year trade him while he has value!

Anaaki November 2, 2008 at 3:47 pm
Mark A. November 2, 2008 at 4:03 pm

We’ve actually signed a bunch of Indy League pitchers….Regas, LaLuna, Linder, Kite, Drucker, Stanley….Kite’s the most promising in my mind, but all of them are pretty big long shots.

Smoking Loon November 2, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Cool link, Anaaki. Thanks.

David, forgot to mention, chances of Sheffield in RF if Ordonez is traded, or for that matter ever playing the OF on a regular basis for the Tigers, are close to nil. This according to comments this past season from JL and DD. I’m hoping this will play a part in Sheffield asking to get out of Detroit before 2009 even begins.

Guys I’d trade rather than Ordonez: Guillen, Polanco. Thames, and Raburn. Not exactly crap. even in Raburn’s case.

David November 3, 2008 at 12:40 am

Billfer – my point on Robertson is that he has missed a few starts last year and in years previous, he hasn’t gotten 33/32 starts year in year out the last 2 years due to minor injuries and suckiness

what is the correct PRECISE definition for injury prone? I don’t know

(162games/5man rotation = 32.4)

in any case I want to say that I don’t trust him “staying healthy(30+ starts) AND pitching well (as defined as an ERA under 4)”

“If we’re talking in terms of just speed though in a pinch running role, I don’t know that he is sooo much more valuable than a Clevlen or Thomas. Than Sean Casey yes, but it’s not like Clevlen or Thomas are slow (although Thomas was an extremely tentative baserunner in his time with Detroit and his speed did him little good).” – Billfer

I’ve never seen Guzman play but lets look at the facts

In their minor league careers Clevlen has over 400 more AB than Guzman and has 282 less steals, I think we can say the speed discrepancy(and/or base running skills) between the two is significant (Guzman makes Clevlen look slow)

As far as Clete Thomas goes again lets look at the facts

Due to Guzman playing more in the minors he has more AB so lets look at a very simple ratio

Guzman
AB/Steals shows that he steals a base on average every 7.1 AB

Thomas
AB/Steals gives him a steal every 16.12 AB

Guzman’s career OPS is slightly lower than Thomas’ and their OB% is very similar (within .005%) therefore saying that they get on base at a relatively close clip

Guzman is successful 83.5% of the time compared to 72.5% for Thomas

and Guzman has had many more attempts

That tells me that Guzman

Blows Thomas, Clevlen and every other Tiger (including Granderson) out of the water when it comes to stealing bases (speed+base running skills)

AND YES COMPARED TO HIM THEY ARE SLOW(or bad base runners or a combo), you are incorrect

The offense you get from Thomas over Guzman (if there is any) looks to be insignificant and looking at their OPS Clevlen appears to be nearly just as bad (all 3 are between a .727 and .762 OPS)

As far as defense goes it’s hard to know, all I know is that he is most likely fast (which is a great asset in the outfield)
I doubt he has an arm like Clevlen but who knows, I haven’t seen him

In any event he would most likely be (if very fast) an upgrade over whoever is in left field or right field

I’ll respond next to your criticism of “we can’t afford to give him a spot”

We sure as heck can, why not?

12 man staff
therefore 13 guys on offense

the entire starting 9 is well 9 guys
then you’ve got the backup catcher(a must) which makes 10
then you’ve got the backup infielder (another must) which makes 11
then you’ve got the backup OF which makes 12
then you’ve got one “wildcard” which should be the pinch runner

Baseball was meant to be played between two foul lines and an outfield fence, not over it

Since you have your mind made up oh well

IMO a good fast runner off the bench is just as important for this team as their closer is

Wins are a result of Pitching Defense and Timely Hitting the last ties with getting guys on 2nd or 3rd in tight games late

If we don’t have enough offensive firepower to keep games close with Grandy,Poly,Maggs,Cabrera and Guillen then :(

If you don’t see the value oh well, I gave you more credit than that

David November 3, 2008 at 12:56 am

Josh

Pedro – maybe depends if the contract reflects his prior season and has clauses where he doesn’t get much if anything if he doesn’t have 25+ starts and an ERA under 4

He’s a high risk/high reward type guy, but he isn’t what he used to be

Garland – NO

Cruz – UM NO, he hasn’t pitched since 2003, and his ERA+ is horrid

giving a guy like that a strong role in this club is dumb

I doubt Smoltz will sign with us, but I would enjoy it if he did for the above reasons

You can’t figure out why people don’t like Shef?

Do you watch Tiger baseball?

1) Almost always pulls the ball
2) Violently swings for the fences
3) Pouts and crys
4) Starts up trouble (fights)
5) Is a racist
6) Has trouble DHing
7) Thinks he is worlds better than he is
8) Almost always hits solo HRs when NOT needed
9) Should be nicknamed either Mr. Infield Fly or 6-4-3 or Mr. Whiff
10) Hit .225 from the DESIGNATED HITTER SPOT
11) Chronically injured (and still plays)
12) Allowed to hit 3rd for most of last year
13) Made a lot of money
14) We lost some good prospects for him
15) The Tigers like the Neifi situation are dragging this out longer than need be, and don’t just cut his @$$

Basically he’s a bum, who doesn’t help the team win and is an Ahole

Why has he been on SEVEN different teams? is my question to you, if he was so great why not keep the saint around?

He is the antithesis of Granderson

You probably aren’t going to get much for Thames

if you do get something so be it

We’ve got another one of his kind in Hessman

David November 3, 2008 at 1:09 am

Loon

hasn’t he (meaning Sheffield) already asked to go back home to the Rays?

who wants him?

apparently we were dumb enough to go trade 3 good pitching prospects for him yippee

As far as other trades

Lets think in the real world not fantasy land

what you gunna get for Raburn or Thames? anything justifiable? any #1 picks or guys gettin’ 7+ks/9 who are under 24?

doubt it

As far as Polanco or Guillen go, what are you going to get in return?

I mean come on

Both on the wrong side of 30, and in Polanco’s case we don’t exactly have guys lining up to replace him (not deep in our depth of 2nd basemen)

As far as Guillen goes, again what you gunna get?

He’s coming of an injury and not his best year, and is going to be moved to the OF, a much easier position to fill (as we know because we have guys lining up to take his or Maggs spot)

It would have been wise in retrospect to trade Magglio after 2007 when his value couldn’t have been higher

but then again who woulda thunk we would have ended up in the basement this year and with so many questions, quite odd IMO

Maggs still has good value and if you could get a couple (2) 18 year old Mauer or Upton or Porcello (ie top notch prospects) plus another 2 so-so’s with decent projection and fill a pen or SS need for this year, I say do it

Especially with Ibanez on the market

BTW I know Shef isn’t prolly gunna be in RF

I’m saying he could go there

If I were DD I would have cut him and I would cut him, but I went under the premises that both he and Brando were given starting spots

David November 3, 2008 at 1:10 am

nite, I got work to do and this is sidetracking me

tigerfanca November 3, 2008 at 1:52 am

David, do you have ANY experience PLAYING ball, or just in the statistics arena? Just wonderin since you sound like you can read stats but have no overall concept on the ebb and flow of the actual baseball world and players’ worth based on real life qualities of these players they show EVERY DAY (not random anal number records from various seasons)…you just sound a little rehearsed for me if you truly are someone who has played the game and/or has seen these guys play in person (and yes, I mean more than once!)

David November 3, 2008 at 4:27 am

tigerfanca

Huh? Who are you? I’ve never heard you comment before…

To your first question yes, I’ve played my entire life baseball and softball. Experience in the statistics arena? I duno I’ve taken one class on it, I am going to be a psych major….read into that what you will…”random anal number record from various seasons”??????? Can you give me examples? Maybe I can explain them to you if you don’t understand them. I have no clue what you’re referencing
“Rehearsed?” again I don’t understand what you mean by this…can you be more clear please
As far as playing the game – I have played on a pretty competitive team for a few years now…
And seeing the guys play in person…. well I went to my first Tigers game when I was around two or three I believe, and I’ve been to many more games than I can count
Usually I watch about 150-200 games live and on TV or radio. I’ve had season tickets in 2005, 2006 2007 and 2008 (last year being all 81 games and yes we sold some) And before that (when their weren’t many fans and I along with others got ridiculed) I went to plenty of games, probably to the tune of 10/year when we didn’t have season tickets if I had to guess. I don’t have to defend myself to you, but I felt like doing it to a small extent anyways. Again I have no clue who the h3ll you are. If you want your other vague questions answered please try to explain them to me and be more specific. I’ll try to make them simple so you can understand.

Thanks

David November 3, 2008 at 5:38 am

I’m sorry I’m blunt, but I believe it’s better to be honest

If you disagree with me please give me the common courtesy and say so backing your point(s) up with facts, like I would give to you

If I think something you say is wrong or stupid I’ll try to point it out… it is only an internet forum hopefully feelings aren’t too fragile.

Thank you

Usually I think I tend to agree with the common sentiment(if there is one) of the regular contributors who have been around for awhile, but not as much lately and I’m saying so

If you don’t like it oh well then ignore it, it is more fun and everyone is better off than if everyone always agrees with each other

JAY-RC November 3, 2008 at 8:51 am

David:
Laughed my a** off when i read that.
All of it is true except for #14, the prospects we lost didnt amount for much. Hey…where is Humberto Sanchez? Still not in MLB
Still though you are correct!!! Besides the first half of 2007 Sheff has been trash

Dave BW November 3, 2008 at 9:04 am

Actually, JAY-RC, Sanchez did appear in MLB this year for the Yankees — though only in two games as a September call-up.

JAY-RC November 3, 2008 at 9:06 am

Keep Poly though! Hes golden on both sides of the ball. Trade Thames already, I like him but he has shown that he is streaky which is alright with the amount of runs we plate but his defense is almost as bad as Guillen. Which brings me to Guillen…No idea why he is now in left (ss to 1B to 3B to Lf…really?!?) but once Sheffields contract is up i think he will be a great DH (love that he is a switch hitter)
Call me crazy but i say live with Inge at third (and pray he hits at or over .250) and just take a chance on Santiago for now. I liked what I saw out of Iorg down here in Lakeland last year perhaps he suprises us and is ready by 2010 with Porcello.
I think we ALL agree that we need ONE solid SP and some pen help. Doesnt have to be KRod or Fuentes. Im all for a Cordero expirement as long as they also bring in a solid arm like Juan Cruz.
I might be just a die hard fan…I just really have a hard time believing that they are that bad. The team is filled with many “Ifs” but i believe (lol) they will find there way back to at least contending for a pennant in September.

JAY-RC November 3, 2008 at 9:10 am

That was kinda my point about Humberto…September call up really isnt a MLB regular you know what i mean. He NEVER lived up to the Hype.
Also see Andrew Miller
Also see Cam’ron Maybin

Sorry I had to watch them All year in Lakeland and never really was impressed with either of them. (personal opinion)

JAY-RC November 3, 2008 at 9:14 am

Sorry though I wont clog up the page anymore..
I just recently found the page and was quite pleased as FoxSports has calmed down a little now.

But hey, Who if anyone do ya’ll think Detroit might aquire via trade or F/A this offseason?

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 11:15 am

“then you’ve got one “wildcard” which should be the pinch runner”

No. Maybe an NL team can afford to carry some kind of wild card. Not an AL team, and certainly not the Tigers. Also, the Tigers can’t cover the infield in 2009 with only one reserve. Also, Clete Thomas made the team out of spring training, to the surprise of all, for a reason, and he was having quite a good rookie season until he got injured. Freddy Guzman doesn’t have an MLB at bat yet with the Tigers, and sports a 49 OPS+ and SB% of 62.5% in limited play in the bigs – he is waaaay behind Clevlen (particularly in defense) and Thomas (particularly in offense) both. Also, it wasn’t lack of speed that hurt the Tigers so much in 2008. It was bad, dumb baserunning mistakes by players and bad, dumb “strategy” by manager and coaches.

“Especially with Ibanez on the market”

Meaning? Not that the Tigers need another DH older than Ordonez or another LF much worse than Thames, right?

“BTW I know Shef isn’t prolly gunna be in RF I’m saying he could go there”

Under what circumstances? I don’t think the Tigers consider him an outfielder at all. And I hope that continues to bug the hell out of him.

“As far as other trades Lets think in the real world not fantasy land what you gunna get for Raburn or Thames? anything justifiable?”

Fan speculation about trades is, by definition, fantasy land. Yes, you can make justifiable trades involving “lesser pieces” like Thames, Raburn, Guillen, and Polanco. Trades are gambles. Ordonez for (whatever) is no sure thing just because of Magglio’s “magnitude.” Could turn out just like the Sheffield deal – for both teams. Speaking of Guillen and injuries, Magglio himself had some real issues when the Tigers got him, which is why the Sox let him go. To their cost, eventually. There are undoubtedly teams that would take the same kind of chance on Guillen.

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 12:05 pm

I think it might be worthwhile for the Tigers to sign Henry Blanco.

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 12:44 pm

In addition to Blanco, I like the idea of signing Adam Everett as well. I think I’d prefer it if the Tigers spent all available money and players on pitching, pitching, pitching.

So there you have it, Assistant GM Andre. Go out and get me some pitching, please, without trading Ordonez.

Andre 4000 (in Chicago) November 3, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Loon,

ok, i’ll try to have some ideas by the end of the day. what i will say is that Crede isn’t an “injury risk”, he is an ‘injury’. i don’t want him and will use all my fantasy powers to ensure he won’t be on the team. same goes for any W. Sox leftovers, unless they do a stint in Philie first.

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 2:03 pm

“Crede isn’t an “injury risk”, he is an ‘injury’.”

This is but another example of why Andre is my Assistant GM. I’m starting to get a bit nervous that I might soon get fired by myself, and replace myself with my own assistant. Oh well – I can always rehire myself as bullpen coach.

Andre 4000 (in Chicago) November 3, 2008 at 3:52 pm

“I would only deal Ordonez if we got at least 3 either first rounders/guys “tearing it up in the minors” in return” -David

Loon,

if Davo can pull that off, i will gladly hand in my resignation as Asst. Fantasy GM.

and David,

you say “at least 3″ high level prospects, if you were an MLB GM, what would you say would be your ceiling for such a move? please keep in mind Maggs’ youth (ie potential to increase his production), his attractive contract and the scarceness of the FA market this off-season. i think they could easily get an entire infield’s worth of 1st-rounders.

Andre 4000 (in Chicago) November 3, 2008 at 5:10 pm

Loon,

ok, so i present to you an admittedly skimpy group of possible pitchers. i did a bare-minimum examination of their stats/careers…so not really trying to unearth any gems here, more gut feeling than anything. with one exception, i’ve excluded an “lettered” free agents, i have no idea what the Tigers are going to be able / allowed to do FA wise, so i didn’t want to look at deals where picks were involved. i’ve also tended to ignore NL-type pitchers.

[subjectively ranked them in descending order]

the Good (not great):

Byrd* (type B)
Foulke
Al Reyes
Guardado

the Gambles (heavily discounted / incentive based contracts):

Colon (might not be that big a gambe…weight is a ‘big’ issue…but i really like this idea)
R. Rincon (injuries? didn’t look into why he hasn’t pitched much)
Prior (filed directly into ‘who knows’ and ‘why not’)

Plain old Andre (in Chicago) November 3, 2008 at 5:11 pm

Loon,

i hadn’t noticed your similar Crede-injury comment, i feel less original now. thanks anyways.

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 5:45 pm

Well, Andre, the best big name starters within our means appear to be Derek Lowe (although I’m leery of any mostly-NL guy) and A.J. Burnett. I’m thinking we should maybe sink the big money into the bullpen, and make smaller deals for possible Galarragas in the meantime.

What about either Brian Fuentes (too expensive?) or Kerry Wood? Darren Oliver? Jason Isringhausen?

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 5:46 pm

Oops, Dre – posted that last before I saw yours. Will take a look.

Plain old Andre (in Chicago) November 3, 2008 at 5:57 pm

Loon,

i don’t like Wood or Isringhausen. NL-slights aside, J-Is isn’t that dominant…and his BB numbers aren’t Knappy enough. Wood found his niche at closer and was pretty effective with great K/BB numbers. but he will be expensive, with the Cubs keen on keeping him.

Oliver and Fuentes are intriguing though, although i’m assuming Fuentes will be the costlier of the two, i still wouldn’t like paying +$2mil for Oliver considering lack of track record.

if the Tigers are allowed to spend on pitching, i’d like to go after Burnett or Lowe…but there aren’t that many teams that won’t be doing the same and i have no idea what DDs budget is. i’d rather them go after Garcia (assuming there’s some kind of discount) and shore up the bullpen like you say.

David November 3, 2008 at 6:11 pm

Jay-RC

Thanks, I tried to be truthful and get all of the reasons when I wrote that…did I miss any?

As far as prospects

Humberto Sanchez was out in 2007 for Tommy John surgery and only had limited action last year as Dave BW pointed out

We’ll see how well he ends up, he’s entering his prime and has a excellent “stuff” if that translates into a winner who knows…

Ask me in 3 or 4 years

as far as Anthony or Kevin again ask me in 3 or 4 years, both guys have done well so far in the minors and are a little young

Even if you didn’t think much of Miller or Maybin both (esp. Maybin) were and are very young, guys mature

I mean one example that came right to the top of my head was BJ Upton – he even now is still going through growing pains

It’s hard to pass judgment on how good a player is/can be before they reach 30

Could have Zumaya flamed out? or could he come back and make good so to speak? I’m not going to say either way until I see it play out more

Guillen was a good (read above average) in my opinion SS before he had knee surgery in 2004, he was moved to third and first due to Cabrera

Now he is in LF because
1)Announced Inge given third base
2)Announced they are going after a SS and Catcher
3) Announced Sheffield is DH

Guillen apparently used to be an outfielder and that is the only spot left…Guillen is my favorite player besides Inge and I have been arguing for him to become a DH for awhile now for multiple reasons

Nice to know Iorg is a quality guy

Yea I think they can contend too if they have a good offseason

yea, I also agree you don’t need big name guys to fill the pen need especially if a few guys are healthy

The starting pitching I think is where you need more depth, and I hope they get at least two guys and pump most of their $$ towards that and a decent SS (or thirdbaseman)

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 6:12 pm

“I hadn’t noticed your similar Crede-injury comment”

Andre, neither of us are terribly original on this one. He’s made Carlos Guillen look like Iron Man. Who, according to my sources, lives again, and has traveled time for the good of all mankind.

Smoking Loon November 3, 2008 at 6:18 pm

“i’d rather them go after Garcia (assuming there’s some kind of discount) and shore up the bullpen like you say.”

Okey-doke.

Have I set my sights too low or astray entirely in signing Blanco and Everett? I don’t know if Everett even starts, but he rounds out the infield picture (along with Larish), for sure. Helluva defensive sub at both 2B and SS.

Plain old Andre (in Chicago) November 3, 2008 at 6:35 pm

Loon,

don’t know much about everett, but i don’t think Blanco is a terrible idea as a back-up. there’s a reason the Cubs have had him for so long in that role. he can’t hit…but he does throw out +40% of would-be-thieves (“teaves” if you’re from the UK).

David November 3, 2008 at 6:36 pm

Loon

“No. Maybe an NL team can afford to carry some kind of wild card. Not an AL team, and certainly not the Tigers. Also, the Tigers can’t cover the infield in 2009 with only one reserve.”

-why? why not an AL team or the Tigers? that’s my point…as it is set up now 2009 IF is Inge/SS/Polanco/Cabrera

Inge and Cabs are pretty durable(ie a small injury risk) where they are at and from my experience

Fine have Guzman be the backup OF and have a backup IF (Santiago?) and a Util

The Tigers leading stealer was a joke, and most of our guys when on first have trouble getting around the bases… I duno I guess we’ll have to agree to disagree b/c you sure aren’t changing my mind on this

Again you’d be hard pressed to convince me that either Thomas or Clevlen are better outfielders than Guzman is because to be honest I haven’t seen any of them play even a half season

I know Clevlen has a good arm, but based on Guzmans ridiculous edge over both in what appears to be speed, you can’t argue that either one would be better without seeing them more

Offensively? um.. if you’re going to compare stats let’s stick with minor league stats, not because one is better than the other but it is actually a decent sample size and all three have been everyday players playing against the same type of pitching

Looking at that there isn’t a big difference, however both Clete and Clevlen are younger than Guzman so therefore they might have a higher ceiling

Oh and yes the Tigers are slow, who on that team has great acceleration? Inge

Who has great top speed? Granderson

Who are the best base stealers? sad to say but probably Guillen/Sheffield and possibly Granderson

what team had the fewest steals in the AL – DA DA DA your 2008 DETROIT TIGERS, and speed plays a part

My thing with Ibanez is that I believe he will able to score similar runs and produce a similar amount of RBIs as Ordonez

no he can’t field for beans

maybe get Sheffield in RF have him run for all these balls get him tired and stop mouthing off (one of my dreams) or picking fights or blaming the fact that he can’t hit on “It’s so hard to be a DH”

boo frickin woo Gary, facts are you suck you blow your finished, just like Higgi was

As far as trading I don’t see us getting much for anyone worthwhile that you named other than Polanco

If I were a GM of another team I would def. trade for Guillen b/c I know what he can do, I just don’t know if he’s coming off a “career year” or healthy year right now – thereby not maximizing his value

At first when I heard the rumors about Magglio I said no way, is this team retarded?

Keep Shef, trade Maggs, hell might as well throw in Cabrera and Granderson and Verlander.. and sign Robertson to a 7 year 120mil contract

But really if you think about it, ask yourself these questions

1) Is Magglio going to get better?
2) Who could you get for him?
3) Could you fill his offensive production of last year (154 total runs+RBI-HRs) with another OF?
4) And to add on to that last question… therefore do we need him?

Keep in mind we already have a pretty decent core and what money they have would be better spent (as we agree) going after pitching and a good defensive SS

Plain old Andre (in Chicago) November 3, 2008 at 6:50 pm

“But really if you think about it, ask yourself these questions

1) Is Magglio going to get better?
2) Who could you get for him?
3) Could you fill his offensive production of last year (154 total runs+RBI-HRs) with another OF?
4) And to add on to that last question… therefore do we need him?”

David, i can’t tell if you’re about to make sense or not. would you mind answering yourself, it’ll help me make up my mind.

Josh M November 3, 2008 at 6:57 pm

David

My bad I meant Juan Cruz from Arz who pitched in relief for them pitched 51.2 innings gave up 5 homers walked 31 and struck out 71. His ERA was 2.61 with a 1.26 WHIP and a .192 against batting average.

And how is you saying NO to Jon Garland a good arguement lol

As far as Sheff goes you took everything I wrote out of context, the first thing I did was complain about him as a person so there was no need to go on and on about his bad personal traits. And as far as the 3 good prospects they lost I would love to know their stats in the Majors since the trade……….oh yeah they havent played any significant time there. And Sheff hasnt played for 7 teams because people didnt like him, seriously? Its because 7 different teams thought he was a GREAT player so they traded to get him or paid out the azz to sign him as a FA. How many times in all the times he has switched teams was he not a major upgrade for the team he went to? The only team he hasnt done much for is Detroit which sucks for us but my whole point about Sheff was that this will be the first season he is healthy (hoping he stays that way) Since when is playing hurt a bad thing? Im sorry but to me he is getting paid millions to play and the fact that he is willing to go out there even when hurting is awesome to me, now the team shouldnt let him play hurt if it is bad for the team but thats not on him thats on Leyland.

All I am saying is if he is healthy this year he will help the club, but yeah if he cant stay healthy obviously we have to sit him.

David November 4, 2008 at 12:08 am

Andre

1) At his age I can’t say yes, so its a no, he might put up another few good years maybe inbetween his 2007/2008 stats, but he could also decline rapidly as we’ve seen with other guys, my guess is he plays at a similar pace to what we’ve seen last year and 2006 and 2005

2) Out of all the guys we’ve got, on offense you probably could get the most trading him (with the exclusion of Granderson/Cabrera – our only two “younger” players who are most likely not going to be traded)

3) Yes go look at for instance Raul Ibanez
last year – 172 runs produced, 2007 – 164 runs produced, 2006 – 185 runs produced

Maggs
154 last year, (carrer year of) 2007- 218, 2006 – 162, before that injured

Who knows, according to quite a few ppl(not myself) Thames is very good

If given 500 ab what would he do?

4) Do we need him? I duno, again it depends what we receive in return for him if I would do it…

It also depends on who they start at catcher/ss and if Inge and Shef are really given starting spots

It also depends on how Guillen/Polanco/Cabrera/Granderson etc. would hit

but my gut feeling is no… we don’t NEED him

you get another stick, (and maybe another if needed at the deadline) along with a staff ERA closer to that of 2006 and you’re golden

It is pitching D and timely hitting that wins

if Bondo, Verlander and Galaraga come up with 4.00 ERAs (which is possible) or lower and you get another good FA pitcher who does the same and the bullpen doesn’t suck

I mean without him we can most likely score enough if our pitching and D is in line and we get timely runs (due to a guy like Guzman)

Lets just look at the AL for one second (I’ll even avoid the NL b/c they are crazy over there with their no DHs ;) )

Check out the teams that made the playoffs

Tampa
Boston
Chicago
Los Angeles

look at their runs scored and runs against

heck look at most teams that are considered good over time, they almost always have good/great pitching and if not they have usually crazy hitting

we need pitching, I would trade Magglio for future stud pitcherSSSSS IF I could get it plus something to help us now

otherwise he is one of my favorite hitters and uses the whole field, and can hit any type balls, too bad he is slow and his arms turned south, he used to be (when he was with the Sox excellent in more facets of the game)

read this again please so you understand

we need pitching, I would trade Magglio for possible future stud pitcherSSSSS IF I could get it plus something to help us now

that is my opinion, if you want to know or if it was hard to understand

David November 4, 2008 at 12:23 am

Josh

Oh, well in that case sure I don’t care, I don’t know him very well considering he plays in Arizona, but it wouldn’t hurt to sign him IMO if he wasn’t too expensive

I said no to Garland because, he is and has never been a #1, #2 or #3 type guy, he is either a #4 or #5 and all he has going for him is that he is a horse (can log a lot of innings and relatively injury free)

If they signed Garland (who probably would want some good $$$) and only signed him, it would tell me this team isn’t serious about contending

If they signed him along with another guy or two, that might be different…

Again about the Shef trade, as with the trade for Cabrera and Willis… if you are smart WAIT to reserve judgment about it until the guys have had a chance to log a few innings in the bigs before telling me that they haven’t/will not amount to anything

that is so far, their career/lives aren’t over

I’m sorry but even in this free agent trading time how many “supposed superstars” play for 7 FREEKIN DIFFERENT TEAMS

I’ve read his bio and I’ve seen enough of him to know that he starts trouble everywhere he goes and is not wanted back badly enough

If he is soooooo good, like you say why didn’t the Yankees resign him? or the Dodgers? or the Braves?

the only guy who isn’t really a superstar(but did quite well last year) that I know who’s been on 6 is Milton Bradley again another troublemaker, more trouble than he’s worth

Yes you want your guys to play hurt to an extent, guys like him or Bondo should know when to shut it down

Theres also playing hurt and playing injured

Plus, like we’ve agreed upon he blows!

Fine some of it’s on Leyland and Dombrowski but some is still on Sheff

he should know when to step down and stop hurting his team

problem is

when he his a HR that has absolutely no bearing on a game it buys him 2 more weeks and he gets interviewed post game and he thinks he’s helping the cause

David November 4, 2008 at 12:36 am

One other thing check out this post by someone named David on April 1st, of 2008 right after opening day, it’s pretty good

………………….

“# David:
April 1st, 2008 at 12:18 pm

I think you are missing my point

The reason that I am pointing this out is only for Sheffield and no one else

I value OB% highly, but in his particular case at least right out of the gate I would like to see him make contact and hit some balls and here is why

1) Injured on and off the last few years, most notably last year where in back to back months(August and September) he hit under .190

ie playing in pain when he shouldn’t have been – hurting the team on the field and keeping himself hurt when he should have been resting

2) He had a poor spring which leads me to believe that he could still be hurting

- if a player is hurt like Bonderman last year or Rodney last year and this year you somehow get them to speak up and bench them rather than watch their performance (and the teams) suffer,

it is a lot better for the player and the team (if other pitchers find out he is in pain then he will not walk 4x per game)

3) He is the DH and sitting the 3 hole, yes getting on base is fine and walking with the bases loaded great if you aren’t getting anything to hit, but he was – check out gameday

and the pitch he was walked on was at his knees right down the middle – ie a strike for most guys

The one time I heard him being interviewed in spring training he said something along the lines of -The key to the success of this lineup, scoring as much as his Yankees did a few years ago, is not letting anyone get complacent and not saying “Oh the guy behind me will just do it”

So why didn’t he practiced what he preached? (give it is only one game, but still he could have at least hit a single and drove in two runs)

The score was 1-0 at the time bases loaded 2 outs, he should have taken what he said to heart and tried to get it done, at least not taken that last pitch and instead foul it off to see if Meche would make a mistake rather than relying on Magglio

He was given quite a few right down the middle pitches that he did nothing with and went chasing after balls, and took some very borderline pitches that I’d venture to guess many other MLB players wouldn’t have gotten the same call

My guess is that he can’t hit right now, is still injured and by the end of April his “performance” will be similar to what it was at the tail end of last year

After one game and his ST that is my guess, it could be wrong, but he has me worried

AGAIN I’m NOT SAYING he is the reason we lost, I’m just worried that he could be hurt”

……………………………………………………..

can you say foresight?

Now I can’t stand him and I’ll say it openly HE NEEDS TO GO, I’ve said it at games and I’m sure I’ve made others feel uncomfortable with saying here comes up Mr. Double Play, Mr. Big Whiff, Mr. Teh SUCKS

but he needs to go

he was put on waivers

just let him go

you cannot have a DH like that, horrible hitting aside his attitude is horrendous

Release him, let him play for another team, if he gets 200 RBIS, starts hitting 500 ft 6run home runs, (in the words of the kid in Angels in the Outfield “It can happen!”) starts flying through the air

I’ve seen as much as I can take, I’ve seen more than enough

Let him go fight with other players hit .220 let Bonds actually give him something to shoot up his “butt”, let him talk about how MLB isn’t doing enough for the black kids, complain about being a DH, complain about playing on the Tigers and not a contender, saying I’m going to get you Fausto, saying he hates Boras and the Yankees and Torre were racist

It keeps going on and on

Facts are

Old
Cannot do the one job required of him
Hurts the team
Mouths off and makes up garbage
Injured “chronically”

Its hard to root for a team when he’s suiting up for them and very easy to boo him

He should spend some time with Curtis Granderson in the offseason and learn how to act in front of the public and relearn how to hit

Dump him NOW

Smoking Loon November 4, 2008 at 12:50 am

David, we certainly agree on the “wish Sheff would go away” part, though it’s not a personality thing for me. I just don’t feel like waiting till June for him to heat up and then beginning the Countdown To Injury.

It’s not that trading Magglio couldn’t be a good move. I’m just too afraid it wouldn’t be, and barring a very specific suggestion/trade rumor, don’t see so far that it would be. The cost of adding someone like Ibanez to replace his production would have to be factored into the overall cost of the trade that sent Maggs away, after all.

For all the rumors, if I had to guess, and I do, I’d say moving Ordonez is not even on the table for DD and the Tigers brain trust..

David November 4, 2008 at 1:20 am

Smoking Loon

Good to know, I agree, a lot of it is how he has played

I’m not against getting guys who were/are controversial heck Cobb and Crawford weren’t the best of friends when they played, neither were Tinkers Evers and Chance, neither were Gehrig and Ruth

But guys like Sheffield take it to a whole new level

As far as Maggs go, I agree with you wholeheartedly and you kind of brought up my point. It’s not that it couldn’t be a good move. I most likely wouldn’t do it, but you can’t rule anything off the table IMO. Some GMs aren’t the brightest and might offer you a deal you cant refuse. I hope they keep him. And yes an Ibanez signing and how much of the Maggs contract the other team would eat would factor into the overall cost.

I hope it isn’t on the table, for DD. If someone comes to him with a fantastic offer of quite a few “can’t-miss” prospects who can mash or have got quite the skills in pitching that would be the only time I hope they consider it.

Glad to know we are finally on the same page.

Dr Dre in Chicago November 4, 2008 at 1:30 am

“how many “supposed superstars” play for 7 FREEKIN DIFFERENT TEAMS”

allow me to point out a lack of direct correlation between “superstar” and # of teams played for.

Schilling – moved 4 times
Clemens – moved 5 times
Pudge – moved 4 times
Damon – moved 4 times
Todd Jones – moved 9 times
Kenny Rogers – moved 8 times
Renteria – moved 5 times
Soriano – moved 4 times
Maddux – moved 7 times
Frank Thomas – moved 5 times

Lofton – moved 13 effing times

besides any of this, as somebody has already pointed out, Sheffield hasn’t been bouncing around the league one-year-contracts at a time, teams had been giving up value for him. that doesn’t mean he’s not washed up now, just means that the amount of teams played for doesn’t = worth, one way of the other.

Dr Dre in Chicago November 4, 2008 at 1:34 am

David,

there’s a non-statistic based reason i hope they don’t trade Maggs (which is in addition to my belief there’s plenty of hard/market reasons he won’t be moved). i think having Maggs in Detroit is not only a fan draw, but he’s a prestige/player drawing figure too. i’m afraid that (whether or not the numbers would bear it out in a ‘vacuum’) losing Maggs would be a symbolic loss.

David November 4, 2008 at 2:20 am

Clemens has played on 4 teams and is done, Schilling 5 teams

Maddux has been on 5 teams and two for the bulk of his career

The Big Hurt has been on one team for his career and at the end he bounces around as a free agent, it is very different than going from team to team

Pudge again 4 teams

Soriano has also played on 4 teams not moved 4 times

Yanks to Texas =1move
Texas to Washington = 1move
Washington to Chicago =1move
total 3 moves not 4

Schilling stuck with the Phils for 9 seasons
Clemens was on the Red Sox for 13 seasons
Maddux was on the Cubs for 10 and the Braves for 11 seasons
Pudge was on the Rangers for 12 seasons
and Thomas was on the Chi Sox for 16 seasons

The rest of the guys Jones, Rogers, Damon, Rentaria etc. I do not consider to be superstars

Sheffield hasn’t stuck with any team longer than 4

As far as Maggs

losing him might be bad, but if you could get a bunch of studs for the future, free up payroll and bring in an established good offensive player(like Ibanez) I don’t think it would be so bad

plus winning games is the ultimate drawing card, and in order to win you need teh guys who can throw teh ball good

David November 4, 2008 at 2:22 am

plus everybody knows the team with the best batting average and most saves always wins right?

its all about the stats

Go STATS! =P

Dr Dre in Chicago November 4, 2008 at 8:52 am

David,

thanks for correcting the terminology i used describing Soriano’s history, however i think the overall point still stands. i took me 10min of drunken searching last night to compile that list (lacking as it may have been), a more in depth look might bear out quite a few more players.

“The rest of the guys Jones, Rogers, Damon, Rentaria etc. I do not consider to be superstars”

well, maybe, but between all the gold-gloves an salary that group commands, i didn’t think it was too big a stretch to include them.

“As far as Maggs

losing him might be bad, but if you could get a bunch of studs for the future, free up payroll and bring in an established good offensive player(like Ibanez) I don’t think it would be so bad”

this may now be moot after DD’s comments, but even if it weren’t i don’t think there’s a scenario where a team gives up a ton of prospects / quality players for Maggs. he’s too old, the FA market is too good this year and they know the Tigers would be moving him mainly to save $$$. i don’t think the Tigers would get value for him and i don’t think they’re ready to lose a star like Maggs going into a season where they might have issues filling the stands.

Smoking Loon November 4, 2008 at 10:28 am

I’m not taking anyone to task here or arguing a point. Just thinking out loud.

Thinking about whether Magglio is going to get better made me think about what that means for him and a number of other players as well. Who’s going to get better and how do you know? Does everyone need to get better? Is it always time to let someone go when they’re not going to get better? Better than what – what is the benchmark?

Discuss.

OK, I’ll discuss. A little. Ordonez doesn’t need to get better. It would be tough to top 2007. Gradual decline over the next 3 years… acceptable, considering his current level. Can Verlander get better than 2006-2007? I don’t think so. He might have a better season or two ahead, but I think he’s about that good and no better (no complaints).

Who do we not just hope but expect to get better, as in better than ever? My guesses: Granderson. Cabrera. Joyce. Ryan. Larish. Raburn. Dolsi. Rapada. Thomas? (? because of injury.) I don’t know if Robertson is even still around, but I don’t expect either he or Bonderman to be better than ever. As good as 2006 would be quite acceptable.

As for everyone else, well, anyone can have a better season than the last.

Is there anyone we expect to be worse? Worse as in damagingly bad, that is. I can’t think of anyone. Sheffield, maybe. Zumaya, if they keep him in the bullpen, maybe. I expect Rodney to be, maybe not worse, but not better enough.

Who “can’t possibly” be better than ever in 2009? Candidates include Ordonez, Guillen, Polanco, Sheffield, Thames, and Inge. My, that’s quite a few.

Plain old Andre (in Chicago) November 4, 2008 at 11:30 am

speaking of “leadershipping”:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11042008/sports/yankees/worst_fielder_in_majors_136772.htm

also, “wins are a result of Pitching Defense and Timely Hitting”…where’s FJM when you need them?

Plain old Andre (in Chicago) November 4, 2008 at 11:39 am

Loon,

very interesting, and imo, spot on. although i am hoping for some serious Whipping Boy production. if Sheffield is healthy (i don’t know if there’s an asterisk big enough…) than i would like to see 40 HR and 140 RBI outta the two of them. please. thank you. ooooo and 20 SB from Sheff, for the team lead. jk. about the lead.

Smoking Loon November 4, 2008 at 12:20 pm

Andre, I realize that our moves are always subject to nullification by the real life Tigers, but help me evaluate these alternatives. All of them assume a new SS-2B guy.

IN THE “SHEFF ISN”T GOING ANYWHERE” WORLD

TRADED: Guillen, Raburn
LF: Joyce/Thames
1B-3B: Larish

TRADED: Thames, Raburn
LF: Guillen
1B-3B: Hessman
Toledo: Larish

TRADED: Guillen, Thames
LF: Joyce? Joyce/Raburn?
1B-3B: Larish? Hessman?

TRADED: Guillen, Thames, Raburn
LF: Joyce
1B-3B: Larish? Hessman?

TRADED: Guillen, Thames, Raburn, Larish
LF: Joyce
1B-3B: Hessman

TRADED: Guillen, Joyce, Raburn
LF: Thames
1B-3B: Larish

TRADED: Guillen, Thames, Larish
LF: Joyce? Joyce/Raburn?
1B-3B: Hessman

TRADED: Thames, Raburn, Larish
LF: Guillen
1B-3B: Hessman

TRADED: Thames, Larish
LF: Guillen
1B-3B: Hessman

IN THE “SHEFF MAGICALLY LEAVES” WORLD

TRADED: Thames, Raburn
DH: Guillen
LF: Joyce
1B-3B: Larish? Hessman?

TRADED: Thames, Raburn
DH: Ordonez
LF: Guillen
RF: Joyce
1B-3B: Larish? Hessman?

TRADED: Thames, Larish
DH: Guillen
LF: Joyce
1B-3B: Hessman

TRADED: Thames, Larish
DH: Ordonez
LF: Guillen
RF: Joyce? Joyce/Raburn?
1B-3B: Hessman

TRADED: Raburn, Larish
DH: Guillen
LF: Joyce/Thames
1B-3B: Hessman

It’s funny, but I thought that sliding these puzzle pieces around would create at least one scenario with Thames at DH or Raburn starting in LF. Not so. It would seem to me that Thames and Raburn almost “have to go.” But trading Guillen while keeping Sheffield… a bit hard to stomach.

And forgive the Hessman Complex, but with Thames gone, it would be good to have another mistake-hitting bopper around, Ks and all. If if it didn’t work, well, hanging onto Larish is probably best.

Smoking Loon November 4, 2008 at 12:30 pm

If Gary Sheffield comes through for the Tigers in 2009, I’ll acknowledge the 818 (and counting) disparaging remarks I’ve made, and gladly eat crow. Which is an odd thing for a loon to say.

“very interesting, and imo, spot on.”

Why, thank you, Andre. I’m doubling your salary, effective immediately.

Speaking of Whipping Boys, I expect a pretty decent year at the plate from Inge. I reserve the right to deny having said this. I’ll have a different name by then, anyway.

Plain old Andre (in Chicago) November 4, 2008 at 12:46 pm

Loon, your 12:20 post is as difficult to read as some of the ones you’ve complained about! also, it flies in the face of my preference for thinking as little as possible before saying something.

in order to manage this mental work load, i will only look at scenarios not involving a Guillen trade or Sheffield leaving (although i’d rate the latter as being the more likely) and get back to you.

Smoking Loon November 4, 2008 at 12:56 pm

Yeah, it’s an unwieldy post. Kind of a sketch pad. Couldn’t figure out how to best lay out the possibilities I saw, but there was surely a better way.

Smoking Loon November 4, 2008 at 1:13 pm

Andre, the limits you suggest probably boil things down to this:

TRADED: Thames, Raburn
LF: Guillen
1B-3B: Hessman
Toledo: Larish

I really don’t like Guillen in LF at all. Unless they trade Maggs, Joyce then becomes a 4th outfielder. Even if he plays fairly often spelling Guillen, Ordonez, and even Sheffield, I really think it’s time to start him full-time if Thames is gone.

The best arguments I can muster for Hessman starting 2009 on the bench are a) Larish would still be around and getting regular work in Toledo, and b) Larish could be attractive in trade, right now even; Hessman, not so much, unless he showed something over the first half. Unfortunately, the arguments contradict each other. It really depends on whether Larish is truly seen as the heir apparent to Inge at 3B, or possibly to Cabrera at 1B a couple years down the road. If he is, then I should abandon the Hessman nonsense, if that’s what it is.

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