Robbie Weinhardt gets the call

by billfer on July 7, 2010 · 153 comments

in 2010 Season,Minors,Roster Management

Post image for Robbie Weinhardt gets the call

We here at Detroit Tigers Weblog have long been supporters of Robbie Weinhardt, so we’re thrilled to see him get his promotion to the big club. Armando Galarraga was optioned down to make room. The team doesn’t need a 5th starter before the All Star break, but they do need relief help after Andrew Oliver’s short outing on Monday and the extra inning affair Tuesday night.

Weinhardt was one of the last cuts of the camp, and seemed poised to slide into a bullpen slot when one opened up. But a remarkably stable and effective bullpen kept him in Toledo where he only walked 4 batters in 27.1 innings. Unfortunately Weinhardt suffered an arm injury at about the same time the Toledo-Detroit shuttle heated up, delaying his promotion.

Weinhardt was the 10th selection in the 2008 reliever draft. He was selected after Cody Satterwhite, Scott Green, and Brett Jacobson but has outperformed them all. For Lakeland in his first season he fanned 11.2 per 9 while only walking 2.8. He continued to progress up the chain with stellar strike out numbers (9.5/9 for his minor league career) and earned a spot as a Tigers AFL representative where he led the league in strikeouts last fall despite being a reliever. Also worth noting is the fact that Weinhardt has allowed just 3 homers in 135 professional innings.

His promotion at this point in time though is about effective roster utilization and it remains to be seen how long he’ll stick with the club beyond the All Star break. With a big series against the Twins coming up though he certainly has a chance to make an impression.

 
 

{ 153 comments }

Steve July 7, 2010 at 7:43 am

Does anyone know why Galarraga went down vs Oliver? . Was it a rotation thing. Great win last night. We need wins now AND against the twinkies. Big series coming up, Is anyone going to the game

Steve

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 7, 2010 at 9:09 am

Dombrowski said it was so that Armando could make a July 15 start for Toledo to stay sharp and will return to our rotation to start on July 20 vs. Texas. Armando wasn’t scheduled to make another start until after the All-Star break and Weinhardt gives us more bullpen depth until we need a fifth starter again (July 20).

SJC in Detroit July 7, 2010 at 8:13 am

I think Leyland switched Oliver and Armando so the lefty Oliver can pitch against all the left-handed Twins this weekend. We’ll see how that works out. The not bunting Damon worked out just fine……

jason July 7, 2010 at 8:52 am

I think Galarraga has a history of being beat up by the Twinkies

Steve July 7, 2010 at 1:15 pm

And PS, Thanks Billfer for reloading the site. Great to see some Tiger ball going again

Steve

Steve July 7, 2010 at 10:03 pm

Sweet win tonight………….. and I’m watching the Twins loose to the Jays right now.

Baseball tonight reporting Peavy gone for the season with some kind of muscle thing in the back. Also saying the Who Sox are all over getting Adam Dunn.

So the they would each be 1.5 back if the white sox do not finish their game tonight.

Have a great night

Steve

Keith (Mr. X) July 8, 2010 at 8:31 am

Smart move by DD to get another bullpen arm up.
We really need Weinhardt to break in quickly now that Zumaya’s gone.
I liked what I saw from him last night.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 8, 2010 at 11:30 am

I’m just absolutely flummoxed that Samuel gave Inge two IBBs in this series. I don’t think I’ve ever seen Inge get one IBB much less two in the same series, and I’d bet I don’t ever see it again.

Vince in MN July 8, 2010 at 5:44 pm

Inge has been hot lately (12 for 24 last 6 games). Laird/Avila not so much (4 for 22 last 6 games)

scotsw July 9, 2010 at 8:27 am

Should we abbreviate the Tigers catcher to “Avilaird” or “Lavila” ?

KW July 9, 2010 at 1:57 pm

Not sure if anyone has mentioned this yet, but there’s a rumor going around that the Tigers may entertain offers for Porcello.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 9, 2010 at 2:46 pm

I’d be interested to see what the Tigers could get back for Porcello. If we could get an everyday SS I’d pull the trigger. Maybe Nolan Ryan would like to give us Elvis Andrus for Mr. Porcello?? Probably not, but I’d inquire if I was DD. Where did you read about this rumor at KW?

Steve July 9, 2010 at 3:19 pm

How about Mike Aviles from KC, Good average, not a ton of power. We are trading a decent prospect for another decent prospect. KC need pitching and we need a little help at SS

Steve

KW July 9, 2010 at 3:21 pm
Kevin in Dallas July 9, 2010 at 5:25 pm

Rangers are getting Lee + $2.5M for Smoak and 3 others minor leaguers. Press conf at 5p.

Kevin in Dallas July 9, 2010 at 7:22 pm

Beck saying the Tigers are borderline rebuilding?

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20100627&content_id=11642096&vkey=news_det&fext=.jsp&c_id=det

Slap in the face, no?

Dr. Detroit July 9, 2010 at 8:14 pm

I don’t think so because I read in this blog before the year started, and particularly before signing Damon and Valverde, and sometimes even afterward, the very same thing. We are starting three rookies, two of which just so happen to being playing top tier ball for us so it softens the blow.

We are in re-building mode, and that is a good thing, because with the D-train/Robertson/Bondo combined monstrosity coming off the books, and our recent grasps at pennant runs culminating in those bad contracts, and keeping Shef here WAY too long, we don’t need for management to get uppity again. Keep riding MVP-Miggy, Maggs, the ‘pen, Verlander and the rooks and let’s see what happens.

Dr. Detroit July 9, 2010 at 8:16 pm

Trading Porcello may be smart if Oliver and Turner our ready, because with a healthy Bondo/Sherzer/Galaraga and of course the Ace, we are solid in SP for the foreseeable future. And per DD’s philosophy in drafting to get outfielders/pitchers to use as trade bait to get position players, trading Porcello for a top tier SS/C talent would be nice–and unless the Rangers have a SS prospect waiting in the wings, Elvis is not coming to Detroit.

Steve July 9, 2010 at 8:39 pm

We need a game thread. Coleman ate you out there?

Steve July 9, 2010 at 8:43 pm

**** Are you out there ?

jason July 9, 2010 at 8:59 pm

4-6 lead off guys on for the Twins today. It hasn’t really cost us so far.

Kevin in Dallas July 9, 2010 at 9:12 pm

What? Is this where we want Weinhardt? Bases loaded v a division rival following an upset JV? Wasn’t this DOOM 15 days ago?

Kevin in Dallas July 9, 2010 at 9:12 pm

You’re welcome everyone.

Steve July 9, 2010 at 9:19 pm

Do that for Billfer to send out a game post. Maybe we can start an across the country WAVE.

kathy July 9, 2010 at 9:38 pm

Just got my wardrobe ready for tomorrow’s game. My first of the year.

Linda July 9, 2010 at 10:32 pm

Who’s your Tiger? (Assuming you’re wearing a team jersey?)

kathy July 10, 2010 at 12:19 am

No, I’m not wearing a jersey but a navy blue and white polyester short sleeved, v-neck top with white stripes on the sleeves & logo on it that I bought at the park last summer, white bermudas, and my brand new black and white sketcher shape-ups, blue and white leather bracelet with Old English D logo on it, tiger fur headband and some extra cash.

Slashpyne July 9, 2010 at 10:27 pm

Have fun Kathy, I’ve enjoyed your positive posts over the last couple years. I still haven’t been to Comerica. It’s a little far from north Idaho! I will be back in Mich next summer for my parents 50 anniversery and I want to take my boys to theire first Tiger home game. They loved going to Seattle for a couple games last year.

kathy July 10, 2010 at 12:22 am

Mario and Rod said tonight’s game was a sellout and you could see and hear the crowd having a ball. Looking forward to tomorrow and coming home with a win.

kathy July 10, 2010 at 9:49 am

Thanks, slash. Way up in Idaho, huh? Wow, now there’s someplace I’d like to visit. My family took a vacation out west many years ago, but we only got as far as Wyoming and took the southern route back. We have an absolutely beautiful, gorgeous day here in Michigan……a great day for a ballgame. Go Tigers!!!!!

mcb July 10, 2010 at 9:31 am

Kathy I will be there too! Can’t wait. I’m feeling Bondo’s slider working today!

kathy July 10, 2010 at 9:50 am

I’ll be up in the 300 section but at least it’s on the first base line and hopefully, I can see into the Tigers’ dugout for a change. Go Bondo, baby!!!

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 10, 2010 at 12:44 pm

Weinhardt really is the unsung hero to me in Friday night’s win over Minnesota. Getting Delmon Young to roll into aninning-ending double play in the sixth was huge. If Young gets a hit (or worse an extra base hit or HR) this game very likely slips away and we are all left cursing the Twins once again. My votes for Player of the Game would be 1) Ordonez 2) Weinhardt 3) Verlander with of course an honorary mention of Inge :-)

Kevin in Dallas July 10, 2010 at 4:15 pm

Rod doing the color for Fox…

Steve July 10, 2010 at 5:34 pm

Im in upstate, I have the bogus Mets – Hotlanta. on Fox

Johnny Damon just crushed one

Kathy I hope you go to every game

Steve

kathy July 10, 2010 at 9:54 pm

p.s. I called that HR!

kathy July 10, 2010 at 9:49 pm

It was a blast!!!!! Did you see the wave? We had a good one going. Oh, I had the best time!!!!

Kevin in Dallas July 11, 2010 at 4:16 pm

White Sox, wow. KC really hates us, don’t they?

kathy July 11, 2010 at 5:53 pm

I’m just wondering if Dombrowski is looking to acquire somone before the trade deadline. He must be fielding offers. Wonder what they are?

Steve July 11, 2010 at 9:15 pm

A catcher that can hit a little more than Avalia, a shortstop who can hit a little more than our platoon, although I can live with what we have there. One more killer starting pitcher. Im not sure about Bondo, Oliver, Armondo, after Verlander. Porcello is too young to tell.

Steve

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 12, 2010 at 5:24 pm

I’d like to see the Tigers offer up Porcello for an everyday SS. Santiago is a great utility player, but don’t like him enough to be our everyday SS. I don’t know if we could pry a guy like Tulo out of Colorado, but that is the level of SS I’d like to see the Tigers get (above average but less than superstar). Porcello has ability, and I’ll bet there are a few teams out there that would love to get their hands on a prospect like RP. I don’t mind keeping Porcello, but I don’t think he’ll ever evolve into a guy who challenges for Cy Youngs or anything like that in the future. I see him as a guy who averages around 13 wins per year in his career, so in other words a #3 or #4 starter type who will have a solid but unspectacular MLB career. His lack of an overpowering fastball or consistent “out” pitch is what I see holding Porcello back from ever being on Verlander’s level. Porcello isn’t a bust in my eyes as he won 14 games as a 20-year old rookie, but in order to get something good you need to give up something of quality. With Turner and Oliver on the horizon, the Tigers could make a move like this. The biggest roadblock in getting Tulowitzki is that the Rockies are right in the thick of their own division race. I’m can’t think of a SS that I want from any of the teams that have fallen out of their division races.

The other thing I’d do is get into Oswalt’s ear about Detroit coming off of his no-trade to list. With Oswalt signed thru 2012 I really would endorse a deal to bring him here. I think dealing Porcello and maybe a prospect like Strieby might be enough to entice the Astro’s to pull the trigger. Of course this all depends on Oswalt being convinced that Detroit is a viable option.

The other thing I worry about is DD being a little gun-shy after last year’s two trade deadline busts. Washburn was horrific and Huff wasn’t much better. At least I will give DD credit for trying to make some deals to put us over the top last year. I hope it doesn’t preclude him from trying to land Oswalt or a SS.

David G July 12, 2010 at 11:09 pm

Tulo is not a Superstar? That’s a newsflash to people that took him in the top 20 overall of any fantasy draft this year. C’mon, you gotta come with something better than that, Tulowitzki is the #2 offensive shortstop in the league, period. The Rocks would not even think about dealing him for Porcello while they are in a pennant race and have a pretty rock-solid top 3 pitchers in their rotation.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 13, 2010 at 2:16 am

Tulo is very good, but I don’t consider him to be a superstar. When I think of the game’s best shortstops I think of Jeter, Ramirez, and Rollins. Tulo is probably in the next tier although I don’t have a list handy of every team’s starting shortstop.

kathy July 13, 2010 at 10:11 am
Kevin in Dallas July 13, 2010 at 11:40 pm

Valverde was sick. Just sick.

Linda July 15, 2010 at 7:37 pm

I can’t believe I’m saying this, but it would be nice to see the Twins sweep this series.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 16, 2010 at 4:25 am

Does anyone know if the TIgers called up Porcello? ESPN is listing him as the Saturday night starter @ CLE, but I haven’t heard or read anything about the Tigers recalling him from Toldeo on any of the local talk radio or newspapers.

kathy July 16, 2010 at 10:17 am

I read an article that says they are going to call him up for one of the starts against Cleveland tomorrow and then send him back. I don’t know how much credibility there is to this. The article said his 2nd start in Toledo was awful.

kathy July 16, 2010 at 6:50 pm

Here comes the real test of our team. Tough teams and tough road trips. Well, if they’re good enough, we’ll know soon enough.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 17, 2010 at 3:43 am

Games like Friday night’s game in Cleveland make it tough to believe we’ve got the right stuff to win the division. It was a very disheartening performance tonight. I’m still behind our guys and hoping for the best, but to see us continually get our ass kicked in road games makes it tough to think we’ll end up on top. This is Cleveland for gosh sakes, I am not asking a lot of our boys to go out and beat these guys. At least Minnesota cooled off the ChiSox for a night.

ouchudied July 17, 2010 at 1:03 pm

I leave the country, come back…. and the game threads are done? I now see that there is no reason for me back here, given no game threads. Seriously though, whatever is going on billfer, good luck and know that these posts were much appreciated and the DTW community hopes that we didn’t do anything to make you think otherwise.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 17, 2010 at 3:46 pm

Well…..we are at it again. We’ve got to be one of the least saavy baseball teams in the majors. Ordonez in particular has my ire today. In the fifth inning he swings at a 2-0 pitch with Carmona struggling to find his control and hits into an inning-ending double play. In the eighth, he swings at the first (yes first) pitch from a new reliever after a leadoff double from Damon. I have no idea if Ordonez has ever seen this guy before, but how about taking a pitch or two? Get an idea for how hard he throws, etc. The result? A predictable weak groundout to the third baseman. One out and the runner is NOT advanced. Way to Magglio. Played it like a true veteran.

I hate the Yankees, but I will say that they know how to play the game. They WORK pitchers. They take pitches. They foul off a ton of pitches and drive up pitch counts. Our team is so undisciplined at the plate in comparison and it makes me sick. We are about to drop a second striaght game to last place Cleveland. Way to go Tigers. I can see this second half will be like all the other Jim Leyland second halves. Wretched. Fire this old man already.

kathy July 17, 2010 at 7:23 pm

Maggs has already been called out in the Detroit News for that bad at-bat. Lots of people noticed. Is his mind somewhere else? This is how he was at the plate last year for the first 4 months.

Mith July 17, 2010 at 8:23 pm

Hey, Jerry, give it a rest. I think Mags knows what he’s doing. Of course he is going to see 2-0, especially if he got a pitch he was looking for.

I can barely stomach this blog, reading your horrible posts.

Shane Trapped in Toledo July 17, 2010 at 9:36 pm

Questioning a career .312 hitter with over 2,000 hits in the majors swinging at a 2-0 pitch is nuts. How in the world did you survive before 2006? Seriously?

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 18, 2010 at 4:51 pm

Hey Mith,

I couldn’t care any less if my posts annoy/piss you off/bother/agitate you. He had two bad at-bats today in crucial spots when the team needed their #2 bat to produce. Stuff it if you don’t like my opinion or go read another blog. Either way I’m going to express opinions so make a choice.

Kevin in Dallas July 17, 2010 at 3:50 pm

I know that it is frustrating, but Magglio historically has a fantastic BABIP on the first pitch. Swings like today’s in the 5th and 8th are just the risk.

We’re gonna win this in the 9th.

Eric Jackson July 17, 2010 at 5:10 pm
kathy July 17, 2010 at 6:51 pm

A health consultant from Troy? I wonder what a health consultant does. Interesting article. Hope the prices were cheap, too. Garage Sales are supposed to be the cheapest possible prices.

The Tigers are depressing me right now.

Linda July 17, 2010 at 11:37 pm

I hate the friggin drum.

Kevin in Dallas July 18, 2010 at 12:51 am

Can someone rationalize for me why Valverde wasn’t up when Weinhardt first got into trouble, and then inserted into the game against Kearns??? Please, bc I can’t figure it out.

You’ve got a kid who is struggling, and just let the winning run get to 2nd. You’ve got an all-star closer who hasn’t pitched in 5 days…and he ends the game on the bench.

Please. Someone explain.

Mark@HOU July 18, 2010 at 11:33 am

How was he struggling? He got two outs quickly. Therefore he was 1 out from from getting out of the inning. It was a bloop hit that led to the scoring run. The walk killled him and I would even some of the balls were borderline strikes to Kearns.

If your definition of struggling is a bloop hit and a walk, I bet 90% of the pitchers who threw yesterday in MLB “struggled”. Only the Kearns hit was a solid hit.

If he had started the inning with a hit and walk, yeah I think you yank him, but he got two quick outs.

But you yank him then, then Valverde pitches a third and and inning. Then we score,Top 13 in my scenario, then whomever you bring in, probably Bonine, blows the save afterward. You would complain that Leyland wasted Valverde and didn’t use him to close the game.

MCM July 18, 2010 at 9:51 am

It’s inexplicable.

jason July 18, 2010 at 1:11 pm

Anyone out there know of another good site that has game threads for Tigers games?

Smith July 18, 2010 at 1:18 pm

Bless You Boys is pretty good.

Kevin in Dallas July 18, 2010 at 3:44 pm

Generally, I’m fine leaving Weinhardt in there. But considering the circumstances (about to get swept in a DH, 3 game losing streak, and your closer hasn’t pitched in 5 days, when he oh by the way, made three All Stars look silly), Valverde should have been in there.

Glad he’s finally called upon, in the last inning of the most embarrassing series of the season. Poor fielding, terrible baserunning, bad catching, and questionable game management.

These things happen over the course of a season. I don’t blame the players for slumps (though some of their efforts should be reviewed…). But I’m not blaming it solely on the players. Hopefully the Twins hold on and we return to some home cookin.

Kevin in Dallas July 18, 2010 at 3:47 pm

And now he hooks Valverde??? In a game that doesn’t matter?? Someone please tell me that there was an injury or something (which may justify Valverde’s absence yesterday).

Mark@HOU July 18, 2010 at 4:57 pm

He didn’t want his pitch count too high because we have no off day tomorrow. Therefore he would still be usable tomorrow in a hopeful win vs Texas.

You can leave him in there to get his pitch count higher, then he’s not available for tomorrow.

Good thing your not managing, none of our good relievers would have an arm left.

Kevin in Dallas July 19, 2010 at 7:52 pm

Mark – you don’t hook your closer after 17 pitches. 25-30, I can see it. Valverde has pitched back to back on several occasions this year. It’s not as if he was tired from all the work Wed – Sat.

Mark@HOU July 19, 2010 at 8:23 pm

So if he pitches to another batter then you yank him? Why not err on the side of caution since the game was out of hand?

It was a perfect, he got work in and got out of there. Unfortunately he gave up some runs. No sense in racking up 20+ pitches.

Then my your logic if he goes 25-30 and goes tonight (hopefully), he’s has no chance of going Tuesday. This way he’s available both today and tomorrow.

Why don’t you hook your closer after 17 pitches? Is this a unwritten rule of baseball ? What benefit was there?

Kevin in Dallas July 20, 2010 at 12:00 am

Mark, I’m gonna concede here. For whatever reason, I never thought of the outing as a fancy bullpen session. Simply slipped my mind. I think I was still frustrated from Leyland’s refusal to use him on Sat.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 18, 2010 at 5:00 pm

This season is over. Congratulations to Minnesota or Chicago. At least the division will be won by a team with some character and guts. Character teams do not get swept in four game series by last place teams. Character teams don’t blow three game leads with four to play on the schedule. Character teams/franchises don’t get swept at home by KC on the season’s final weekend with the division on the line.

Really awesome series boys. Way to go Ol’ Smoky. You once again have your boys ready to go after the All-Star break. What a manager! I hope Rod Allen can continue to spread the myth that Leyland is one of the best in the game. Maybe if he says it enough times more people will continue to believe it. Please Dombrowski….make this Leyland’s last season in Detroit. I’ve got tickets to next Sunday’s game near the visiting dugout and I don’t even want to go now. What a depressing weekend of baseball.

Mark@HOU July 18, 2010 at 9:50 pm

Think this is the 3rd time this season you pronounced the season over, eventually you are going to be right.

Before this weekend started 1 game out, now 1.5 out. Take a long view once in a while.

I forgot how Leyland forgot to give the Tigers their magic Tigerade to allow them to get hits.

What does it mean to have character? Lets make up other things we can say the Tigers don’t have. The Tigers don’t have enough Retsin. Teams with Retsin don’t get swept by last place teams. Teams with Retsin don’t blow three game leads with 4 to tp play, nevermind Twins had to play 800 ball to tie, 900 if you don’t count Tigers games, that had nothing to do with it. Had to be the Tigers lack of Retsin.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 19, 2010 at 1:32 pm

Yeah….my bad. This team is really wonderful. They’ve got tons of character. Like being the first team to ever blow a three game lead with four games to play. Do mean that kind of character Mark? Their ace can’t shut down the other side when given an early 3-0 lead, and the manager starts a green rookie who has not been good (Oliver) in a game over Bonderman with a sweep staring them in the face. I can see why I’m totally overreacting here. Everything is fine. Keep the musicians playing on the deck of the Titanic. This is not just a reaction to a four-game sweep to the punchless Indians (let us not forget they were without Sizemore and Choo for this entrie series). This is a reaction to five seasons of second half swoons by the Tigers under Leyland. Do we really need to see the rest of the season to see what happens? Of course its not 100% his fault, but he is one of the few constants in this equation. As the old saying goes “you can’t fire the players”, so the manager goes. I am a diehard Tiger fan. As you can see, I take the losses personally. I just want to win consistently. Contending for division titles and falling a bit short is not satisfactory for me. I want division titles, and ultimately I want World Series titles. Is it unrealistic to expect three-four diviison titles per decade? That is my expectation, especially in a division without the Yankees. Its not unrealistic when you see teams like the Twins doing it. If you are making the playoffs that consistently, chances are good that you’ll win a World Series one time out of four postseason appearances. Does anyone here realize that we’ve won three division titles since division play began in 1969? And all of those came in a seven-team division that included the Yankees. We have zero division titles since we were shifted to the weaker AL Central in 1997.

Choking (and they CHOKED last year….don’t give me that Minnesota played .900 ball crap) twice in four years (don’t forget that wonderful final weekend vs. KC at Comerica in 2006) is what has pushed me over the edge in terms of wanting Leyland fired. Its obvious that the players don’t respond to him in the second half. You can try and defend him in any statiscal manner you like, but the ultimate judge of a manager is did he win titles or not? The team under Leyland has had a remarkably poor second-half track record. In 2007 I believe we had a pretty strong first half as well, only to fall completely out of the race by mid-September. Its just time for a change. Watching this over and over is cruel.

Being a lifelong Tiger fan doesn’t leave me with any other choice but to root for these guys. The die has been cast, for better or worse. Probably the best and worst thing that ever happened (at least for me) was them winning the World Series in 1984. As a 13-year old fan that hooked me for life. It was a great season and I will always cherish it, but sometimes I wonder if that was the peak of being a Tiger’s fan for my entire lifetime. Is that the only time these eyes will ever get to see the Olde English D on top of the baseball world? I will always root for the Tigers, but I want some payoff for years of emotional and financial support (27 game ticket packages for eight years, hundreds of games attended in total in my lifetime, merchandise, etc.) of this franchise. Is that asking so much? When you look back at the history of this franchise its pretty sad that we’ve won only four World Series titles in 110 years of playing this game. The Florida Marlins have won two in less than twenty years of existence. Its time to demand more, that is all I’m saying.

Mark@HOU July 19, 2010 at 4:23 pm

The Tigers don’t owe you anything. No one holds a gun to your head buying season tickets and merchandise. There’s not a Tigers’ Tax on your house, especially since Illitch didn’t take city money to build Comerica. The Tigers don’t owe you a “payoff”, they have provided years of entertainment for the cost of a television and cable package, the other stuff YOU CHOOSE to pay extra for.

The franchise was run into the ground basically starting in 1991. After 12 years of neglect, DD took over. The neglect takes YEARS to recover from Our system is now starting to build with younger players coming through. The reason the Twins are good as they have had the same program for 25 years, therefore their system is well defined and they have depth. We don’t have it yet. They even haven’t won a title in almost 20 years.

You realize that maybe that second half nonperformance isn’t nonperformance at all? It is merely regression to the mean. Last year Edwin had a career first half, he was going to regress. Porcello had never thrown that many innings.

This year we can expect regression from other players, Boesch, Jackson and Cabrera. Players don’t have career years every year.

I think your definition of character is a joke. If they win they have character, if not they don’t. You can call it whatever you want. Its in your imagination.

I’m sorry you think the Tigers should have more titles in 110 years, but Leyland and DD can’t go back in time and make us better teams in the past. They are only responsible for the last 7. In which they have a 1/8 playoff rate. Pretty good since the team was historically bad before they got here. They have been in races 4 of those years. Pretty good for where we were.

Just because your in the league doesn’t mean you win titles, it takes good management. Just ask the Indians, Royals, Pirates, Cubs, Astros.

You want division titles? Why they are worthless now, no one remembers if you are a wild card team or division winner. Not to mention you complain that we only won a 2006 AL Pennet in 2006. Look at that lineup? It took a fine manager to get that team to win, you think Leyland forgot to manage all of sudden?

You say you want tittles, but you realize the only Central team to win the WS in 19 years is the Whitesox? I don’t think you would trade places with them? The Royals? The Indians haven’t won a WS in 50 years.

You compare them to the Marlins? As the epitome of what you want? You realize who managed the team in 1997 and who built both those teams right?

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 20, 2010 at 12:29 pm

That is the kind of attitiude that rewards mediocrity Mark. Of course no one put a gun to my head to buy tickets and merchandise. However, if everyone suddenly stopped going to the games and buying merchandise, but watched every game at home on cable (as you seem to suggest) the Tigers would go out of business pretty damn quick. So in a sense they do owe me and all the Tiger fans something more than they given us over the years. As Valenti (who I genereally don’t care for but I think he is on point in regards to the Tigers) said on the radio yesterday, in other towns heads would roll with these second half collapses. Here we get the familiar refrain of “Gosh if someone had told you that the Tigers would be 2.5 games out of first on July 20 wouldn’t you take it?”. Or last year “If someone told you that the Tigers would have a seven game lead on September 3rd, would you take it?” That is a loser’s mentality and part of the reason why the Tigers can get away with just being OK in this town. Baseball mattering after May 1 should be a foregone conclusion. Baseball needs to matter in October a lot more often than it does around here. We are not in a division with the NYY and the Red Sox, if we were I’d be a lot more tolerant of our record.

As far as comparing them to the Marlins goes, no the Marlins are not the epitome of what I want. That is the point. They are hardly a model franchise and twice have had fire sales, yet despite all this they have two World Series titles in less than twenty years. We have four in 110 years. Doesn’t that seem a little odd to you? Especially that we got to compete in a major league that only had 16 or so teams for many years in the early part of the century while Florida has done it in an era where there are 30 teams chasing the same prize. Florida is not the epitome of what I want, yet they have far exceeded our accomplishments in the same period of time from their birth as a franchise in 1993.

Dombrowski deserves a lot of blame as well. He has made some moves to get us back to relevancy, but he has made some horrible decisions over the last three years that have retarded our progress. The Renteria trade and the Willis extension (unbelievable consdiering that he was showing signs of the wheels coming off in his last season in Florida) immediately leap to mind. To top that off in the draft this year he completely ignores our weakest (or a close second to C) position of SS for the first 16 rounds. 16 rounds without drafting what is arguably one of the most important positions on a baseball team. We have nothing at SS in the bigs and one kid in Class A who MIGHT be good someday (Fields) and you completely ignore the position in the draft. Whaaaat? That is mind boggling to me. Putting all your eggs in the Fields basket is not a wise decision. How about developing some depth somewhere besides pitching? That way you don’t have to deal off your prospects in order to take on someone else’s aging SS (Renteria reference for those not following along). As the current big league team has shown, if you are weak at the SS positions you probably aren’t going to get over the top.

Smith July 20, 2010 at 1:05 pm

The last 5 SS from the WS winning teams:

2005 – Juan Uribe (.252/.301/.412 – 16HR)
2006 – David Eckstein (.292/.350/.344 – 2HR)
2007 – Julio Lugo (.237/.294/.349 – 8HR)
2008 – Jimmy Rollins (.277/.349/.437 – 11HR)
2009 – Derek Jeter (.334/.406/..465 – 18HR)

I’m going to disagree with you that weakness at the SS position means that “you probably aren’t going to get over the top.” Jeter is the only STUD on that list. I think you need a ‘servicable’ bat and a good glove. We’ve got that in Santiago and company. Sure, maybe Santiago isn’t the every day answer, maybe Worth is. I don’t know.

For comparison:
2010 – Ramon Santiago (.270/.342/.328 – 2HR) – 61 games at SS
2010 – Danny Worth (.278/.305/.380 – 1HR) – 15 games at SS

Not great statistics, but servicable… which is what wins championships, apparently. (being sarcastic)

Mark@HOU July 20, 2010 at 3:46 pm

I don’t suggest you stop buying tickets or merchandise, but if you think a team owes you something, you should stop. I buy tickets because I enjoy the team and wearing their apparel. And no the Tigers wouldn’t go out of business quick, because enough people share my opinion and enjoy the games. The Tigers get 80 million through revenue sharing and tv rights before they sell one ticket or hot dog, see ESPN Revenue sharing.

When heads roll, your starting over. When you get that close multiple times wouldnt you believe your on to something. The Mets have had some horrid collapes the last couple years, Minaya still has his job. NYC is a little tougher on Detroit. I love how you argue hypothetical straw men here.. In other towns, this wouldn’t happen how do you know? How is not every franchise and situation unique.

Again you like the Marlins Titles, we stole the people who designed those teams and got to another WS. Who would you hire instead? Some guys with no track record?

DD is not perfect. I don’t claim he is. But not drafting a SS? Thats what you care about? Are you looking at high school, college and international players? I mean since you can evaluate talent from your couch. You draft talent not position. Especially in baseball where its a crapshoot. Drafting for position is what gets the lions in so much trouble. . He tried with Iorg, didn’t work. Gustavo Nunez and Fields still have a shot. You draft a guy and what he’s ready in 4 years? You are going to battle with Santiago and Worth for 4 years. Maybe DD knows he needs a SS before than and will sign one to bridge a gap. Hindsight is 20/20 on everything. That Jurrjens trade looks really bad then and now, but Jurrjens has been hurt and now not looking so horrible. The Willis extension, I claim was the fans and media’s fault. Everyone was mad about giving up the future of Miller and Maybin for Cabrera and Willis, especially since Wills was a FA. How could we trade those guys for rentals? I think the Willis extension was a PR move that backfired in a huge way. Again not smart.

No it doesnt seem odd that we only have 4 titles. I wasn’t around for the first 80 years, so won’t comment. Its not a “turns” game. Its not everyone gets a trophy day. The best management and teams win titles. No one is gifted a title, or deserves a title after so many years. Just ask the Cubs, Red Sox, White Sox, combined 270 years between them and 3 titles. Not to mention the Mariners, Astros, Rangers, Expos (Nats), Padres, Brewers 0 between them in 250 years combined play. Or the 1 the Angels and Royals have in 50 years each. You trading with any of them?.Giants who haven’t won in 55 years? Are those the clubs where heads would roll? Maybe we don’t want to copy that half of the league. The Tigers rank 6th or 9th in Titles depending on how you count moving franchises.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 21, 2010 at 3:45 pm

Really? The teams don’t take turns winning titles, as in “I won last year so you can win this year”. Thanks, because I wasn’t aware that it didn’t work that way. If you think four World Series titles in 110 years of playing a sport is OK, well then I guess we have different standards for what is acceptable from the franchise that you root for on a yearly basis. To me that is not good enough. I also have not been around for the entire 110 years of Detroit Tiger baseball, but it seems to me that more can be achieved especially playing in a division such as the AL Central. We should have won it last year and we collapsed………again.

As far as drafting a SS goes, are you really trying to convince me that there wasn’t a SS in all of international/college/high school baseball that wasn’t impressive enough to take somewhere in the first 16 rounds of the draft? Even if your top target ot two at that position got drafted before you could nab him, you’ve got (at least IMO) take one somewhere in the first ten rounds. It is an important position, and drafting at least one fosters more competition within the organization, builds depth, etc. C’mon man, by ignoring position players you leave yourself in dilemnas like the current one the Tigers have at SS. As I am not a baseball scout and as you say “sitting on my couch”, I still find it hard to believe that this organization generally ignores postion players and drafts pitcher after pitcher. While its true that nothing is more important than pitching, you still need to develop other positions within your organization. I guess I just disagree with the way the organization goes about trying to achieve what we all want to see, a World Series title.

I am willing to stick with Dombrowski a bit longer (although I believe his leash should be pretty short), but if I had my druthers I’d like to see Leyland shown the door in November, if not sooner. I just don’t think it going to happen with him here. He may have won in Florida, but that doesn’t guarantee him doing the same here in Detroit. We can’t fire the players, yet something needs to change. You know what I mean? That is the way this business works. I don’t see how keeping Leyland and basically this same team intact next year will yield anything different than an exciting first half of the year. I want to look forward to July and beyond, not dread it.

Mark@HOU July 21, 2010 at 5:59 pm

I don’t understand your logic. I believe it to be we’ve played for 100 years we should have more titles. I’ve compared them to other franchises you ignore that information. It’s not odd the Tigers only have 4.
DD and Leyland can’t fix the past and aren’t responsible for it No one is ever due for a title, just ask Cleveland.

So having management and consistent leadership is what’s important.

Speaking of the draft, I listed 3 SS in the system. This was a bad draft talent wise, and the baseball draft is a crap shoot. So Yes I would take a pitcher that has a 2% making it over a SS with .025%. I have to trust DD on these decisions, and his track record is pretty good, dealing with talent and sign ability. You realize that stars don’t come out of the later rounds of the draft unless they dropped because of signability and salary demands right? Not to mention pitching, even relief pitching is golden. Look at some of the trade demands for just relief pitchers. Plus he spent 10 of his top 20 picks on position players including his first, I don’t know how that’s ignoring the hitters. Even though everything after the first 4 are just lotto tickets.

Mith July 18, 2010 at 10:22 pm

Get a grip, Jerry. Are you kidding me? The Tigers are a couple games out and its all over. What a fair weather fan you must be. I can just see you watching the game, pacing the living room and yelling “THE SKY IS FALLING!”

stephen July 19, 2010 at 12:54 am

Well, the Tigers have swooned every second half of the Leyland regime and they were just swept by the second worst team in the American League. And the schedule just gets more difficult. I think Jerry has a firmer grip on reality than the rest of you.

Vince in MN July 19, 2010 at 1:58 am

Shoot! Despite the histerical record over the last few years and the fact that they are deeply flawed in almost every phase of the game, let’s have a little objectivity here. Maybe getting swept 4 straight by the second worst team in the league will be just what the boys need to turn the season around. Ol’ Smokey can give them the old Knut Rockne “win one for the Gipper” speech before the next game, which will fire them up so they play with more heart, and everything will turn out fine. Remember, there are 72 (73 if they tie!) games left to play, which is more than enough time to right the ship. It’s a long season and they aren’t even close to being mathematically eliminated yet. I bet it’s going to be a three-legged race to the finish in the weak Central where anything can happen. Besides, with the trade deadline coming up, DD and Leyland will surely put there heads together and, like last year, go out and get a couple of extra pieces to help put them over the top. I can almost hear the gears grinding from here. Have a little Faith. And even if worse comes to worst and they do collapse, remember, baseball is just a game.

kathy July 19, 2010 at 9:39 am

and a business.

Vince in MN July 19, 2010 at 6:58 pm

A corporate business. I try not to think about that while watcing a game. Somehow it takes the “sport” out of it for me.

KW July 20, 2010 at 3:16 pm

While I think Jerry has some valid points, he’s flipping his wig a bit. Here are the longest losing streaks for the last 10 WS champs:

2009 Yankees: 5 games
2008 Phillies: 6 games
2007 Red Sox: 4 games
2006 Cardinals: 8 games
2005 White Sox: 7 games
2004 Red Sox: 5 games
2003 Marlins: 6 games
2002 Angels: 6 games
2001 Diamondbacks: 5 games
2000 Yankees: 7 games

Even championship teams have bad stretches. And sometimes mediocre teams like the 2006 Cardinals make it to the WS and win anyway. This is baseball–anything can happen.

Mark@HOU July 19, 2010 at 12:07 pm

I don’t think we are going to win the division. I just don’t think the season is over. Think we have about a 33% chance, maybe a little smaller. Plus I thought the Whitesox were the best team at the beginning of the season, without Peavy I’m not as sure.

You guys give up on seasons 8 times during a year. Do me a favor, once you give up once, stop commenting.

Mark in Chicago July 19, 2010 at 5:50 pm

This team wasn’t even supposed to be very good this year, most predicted 78 wins or so (they may still get there). Fact is they traded their best all around player, didn’t re-sign their starting 2b, flipped a solid innings eater coming off a career year for more than he’s worth, and revamped 40% of their bullpen. Those are major changes that made them younger, but didn’t address a couple of other holes. And yet this team is contending for first place in July, so why is anyone complaining? They have probably played somewhat over their heads so far (let’s not kid ourselves, they don’t have nearly the talent – especially in the lineup – that the Twins possess), so just enjoy it while it lasts. Baseball matters again in Detroit past May 1 every season now, isn’t that what we all wanted back in 2003?

Smith July 20, 2010 at 9:34 am

Best all-around-player? Please tell me you aren’t referring to Curtis Granderson. I understand he was a great guy, but a lead-off hitter sporting a career OBP of .340 (Edgar Renteria is better than that) can’t be a best at anything… He had a crappy year (even for him) in ’09 and we got lucky the Yanks gave us what they did for him.

But on the whole, your point is totally valid. I’ve been telling people this for two months. We’re young! We’re not supposed to be any good this year, so enjoy the good things. We’ll be much improved (and rid of lots of excess salary) next season.

KW July 20, 2010 at 3:03 pm

Amen, Smith. I was going to post something similar about Granderson but you hit the nail on the head.

Mark in Chicago July 20, 2010 at 4:14 pm

Just because Granderson was mis-used as a leadoff hitter despite his average-ish career OBP doesn’t mean he wasn’t their best all-around player. Curtis could do multiple things well, something that no one else on the team could match in all aspects. Yes, Cabrera and Ordonez are better hitters for power and average, but they don’t have the defensive tools that Granderson has (which aren’t GREAT, but are certainly better than those two, and at a premium position), nor do they run the bases as well. Laird and Santiago are defensive geniuses but can’t hit their way out of a paper bag, or for any power. Curtis wasn’t great in any facet of the game, but was above average in all the major phases, and it’s not accurate to say that about anyone else on last year’s team. I’m not overvaluing him, I think it was probably the right move for the long-term health of the franchise, I’m just saying he was their best all-around player (not most valuable) and a key component on the team.

Yep, he had a crappy year in ’09, but at the time of the trade, everybody thought Granderson was one of our best players.

Smith July 21, 2010 at 12:12 pm

You’re just splitting hairs. Granderson batted .250. That’s not good. Inge (before he got hurt) was batting .260 yet people were still screaming to cut him, and his defense is better than Grandy’s. It’s all relative, but Cabrera was much better than Granderson. He batted nearly .100 points higher, had just as many walks, 1/3 the K’s, and better power numbers. He also, technically had a better fielding percentage.

Sure, Grandy was above-average in most facets of the game. That makes him an above-average power hitting outfielder. Nothing spectacular. And until he proves otherwise (which he definitely isn’t this year), I’m not buying into his greatness.

And I, for one, didn’t think he was one of our best players. Cabby, Mags, Polanco, and Verlander were all better (and more valuable to the team) IMO.

A rookie came in and has played much better than Curtis already. A .300 hitter, with an outstanding glove and speed to burn. He almost has as many steals in July as Curtis had all last season. The ONLY thing Grandy has on Jackson (or anyone else for that matter) is his power. Maybe the Blue Jays will trade for him. They like .230 hitting HR hitters. I don’t.

stephen July 21, 2010 at 10:28 pm

That is what we wanted in 2003. But now that we have a top five payroll, we’d like to see a division title for the first time in nearly a quarter century. That doesn’t seem like too much to ask.

Vince in MN July 19, 2010 at 6:47 pm

Actually, having them in 2nd/3rd place may be kind of a relief: instead of praying they don’t collapse like last year, we can get into the thrill of watching an underdog as it tries to come from behind and miraculously win the division at the very end.

kathy July 19, 2010 at 10:18 pm

Didn’t we have enough of that in the 90′s? And you want more?

Vince in MN July 20, 2010 at 8:06 pm

The Tigers weren’t underdogs in the 90s – they were dead dogs – big difference.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 20, 2010 at 12:33 pm

Mith, tell the musicians to keep playing. The ship is not sinking. That loud crash you heard and the deck tilting sidways is not an iceberg, it is completely normal. Just as getting swept in a four-game series by a last place team without its two best players is completely noraml. Carry on. Nothing to see here.

kathy July 18, 2010 at 7:58 pm

Sure wish Gramps would retire.

Vince in MN July 20, 2010 at 8:08 pm

Piniella announced his intention to retire at the end of the season today – you mean that gramps?

Kevin in Dallas July 20, 2010 at 12:02 am

There’s not many lows like baseball lows. At least we get to play tomorrow. See everyone then.

It’s still the Central, one well timed win streak and we’ll all be ordering our playoff tickets again. (Followed by another 0-6 stretch, isn’t this our 2nd one this year?, where we’ll all swear off the team for good).

T Smith July 20, 2010 at 12:46 am

The most frustating part is all the opportunities. My goodness. You couldn’t have handed the team more chances to win on a gilded platter. Bases loaded in the 11th with one out. You gotta have a walk-off there. I’m half inclined to squeeze in that situation…just to break the freakin’ runner-on-third-less-than-two-out curse. If it doesn’t work you still have one more chance for the walk-off. GIDP is just horrible. Just horrible.

KW July 20, 2010 at 3:02 pm

Okay, where’s Billfer? I think it’s kind of crappy of him to not let his devoted followers know what’s going on with the site.

Vince in MN July 20, 2010 at 8:17 pm

I wonder if this will be the last thread. Maybe it will go on forever and ever.

kathy July 20, 2010 at 9:33 pm

I miss everyone!

stephen July 20, 2010 at 9:53 pm

Mark in Chicago, I’m pretty sure you can’t be your team’s best all-around player when you hit .200 against left handers from 2006-2009 as did Granderson. If you need to be platooned, you’re not a great all around player.

Mark in Chicago July 20, 2010 at 10:19 pm

I didn’t call him a ‘great’ all around player, just the best on the Tigers. However, your point is valid, so now the burden is on you: if Granderson was not the Tigers’ best all-around player when he was traded, then who was?

Smith July 21, 2010 at 12:00 pm

Cabrera. Hands down. In 2009 he was .324 w/ 34 HR’s and 100+ RBI’s. He had a .995 fielding % with 7 errors in 153 games. As a 240 lbs power hitter he also had 6 stolen bases in 8 attempts. He finished 4th in the MVP voting.
2nd best – Verlander. Personally, I would even put Polanco above Granderson as ‘all around’ value to the Tigers. But that’s just my opinion.

Mark in Chicago July 21, 2010 at 1:11 pm

OK, I read both your posts. Cabrera is a better hitter than Grandy, no question. Agree with that 100%, and I said as much in one of my earlier posts. But I disagree with the notion that he’s better all-around than Granderson. Your use of fielding percentage is archaic, but Granderson’s fielding percentage was .993, statistically the same as Cabrera, and at a much tougher position. Pointing to Cabrera’s 6 SB doesn’t tell us much (how many were the back end of a double steal?) and anyway Granderson had 20 SB in 26 attempts. So these tell us that Granderson is a better fielder and base stealer than Cabrera (no surprise) but Cabrera is a better hitter. But it’s not like Granderson hits like Adam Everett – he’s shown an ability to hit for a reasonable batting average, with some power, and take some walks. Look past 2009 for evidence of these things. I think Granderson’s skills in those areas surpass Cabrera’s skills in fielding and base stealing, thus making him better all-around. Cabrera is (and was even before Grandy was traded) our BEST player, period, because his value as a hitter outweigh all of the skills that Granderson brings to the table. There’s a distinction there. But that is my opinion

Saying that Cabrera finished 4th in the MVP means nothing – I didn’t say Granderson was the most valuable or even best, period (again, I’m making a clear distinction here). I said best all-around because he do more things well than anyone else on the team. How you got Verlander involved makes no sense to me for the same reasons – I didn’t say ‘best’ or ‘most valuable’.

Smith July 22, 2010 at 10:24 am

I understand where you’re going with it. It’s a distintion between ‘best all around’, ‘best’, and ‘most valuable’. It’s a good conversation to have over a beer. You make some valid points sticking up for Grandy, and if I wasn’t so stubborn, I’d almost concede and agree with you. I’ll just agree to disagree, instead. It’s an opinion thing anyway. :)

Mark in Chicago July 22, 2010 at 10:28 am

If you think you’re stubborn, you should meet my wife. ;-)

I kid, I kid…

Steve July 20, 2010 at 10:00 pm

I miss everyone as well. Also wish Bill would let us know what he is up to and if he plans on returning soon. There have been a lot of loyal people over the years that have come here and while Bill owes us nothing, I wish he could let us know his status and if he plans to continue. I miss the metrics portion and the game threads.
BTW. Tigers need to hit we have looked awful the last few nights. Lot of ball left we will see

Steve

Jeff Molby July 22, 2010 at 7:31 am

I’ve been there before. He doesn’t know his status. He didn’t wake up a week ago and decide to take a week off. I’m sure he woke up every day with at least a small hope of posting a little something, but by the end of each day, his other priorities (family, career, etc) had sapped all of his energy.

A status update would be nice, but we can also just trust that he’ll return as soon as it’s practical for him to do so. He’s certainly earned that much.

TSE July 20, 2010 at 11:01 pm

The down time is due to the 7 game losing streak that has put us 3 games out of first place. It’s not Bilfer’s fault, it’s the Tiger’s fault for not getting the job done to give the fans excitement and encouragement to spread the buzz around. We have no pop in our formula, and until we add that things are going to continue to drawl along I suspect.

T Smith July 20, 2010 at 11:08 pm

I hope Bill is okay. My guess is the site became too much of a burden to sustain, given a new job, family life, etc. If the game threads are over, I only wish he would announce it — kinda like a Detroit Tigers Weblog version of the last episode of Seinfeld, or something.

In any case, I hope all is well with Bill and his family.

Kevin in Dallas July 20, 2010 at 11:44 pm

He’s gonna pop in and lead us to an 8 game winning streak. Coming soon.

David G July 21, 2010 at 12:04 am

If today’s Lynn Henning article (in spite of Inge’s late run of offensive contributions) does not bring Bilfer out, I don’t know what will. Especially after Kelly’s nice night on D at 3rd.

JCM July 21, 2010 at 8:46 pm

Cabrera is the second best player in MLB , trailing only Pujols. He has Willie Mays alike numbers

kathy July 21, 2010 at 10:42 pm

And Scott Sizemore is going to be our new 3rd baseman. That ought to make a few people happy………..or not. We’ll see what happens.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 22, 2010 at 2:57 am

Mark,
I can’t reply to you above because there is no “reply” option underneath your latest response to me, so I will reply here. My point is that I wnat more from my favorite pro franchise. I merely pointed out that 4 titles in 110 years is substandard IMO. I don’t expect Leyland, Dombrowski or anyone else to change the past. What I want them to do is make the future an enjoyable one, but that I have lost my faith in their ability to do so. I want Leyland out based on the three second-half collapses plus his one season of total collapse right from the jump (2008). I’m saying that I’m not happy to “be in the race” and fall short. I thought that was clear. I want Leyland gone because I have less faith in him than I do in Dombrowski, and that’s saying something because my faith in Dombrowski is not real high right now. If you think winning a title once every quarter of a century is cool, then so be it. We may have more titles than Team X and Team Y, but four world titles in 110 years is not a lot to beat your chest about. I’m just saying that I don’t endorse the “at least baseball matters past May 1″ mantra. If you are happy because things are so good compared to 2003 (at least that is what it seems you are implying), to me that is more flawed thinking than being mad about our lack of World Series titles. 74 wins would look good next to 2003. That’s all I’m saying. Stop settling for OK results.

I want the Tigers to have the type of success that the Red WIngs have had under Ilitch. I know they are different sports and one has a salary cap and one doesn’t, but the Red Wings really flourished under Ilitch before the NHL salary cap. Why can’t the Tigers do the same in an uncapped sport? Spend the money, get an excellent team, and it will pay for itself. There would be sellouts galore, merchandise thru the roof, and he’d be able to get more money out of FSN or whoever won the next bid to be the flagship TV station for the Tigers. Lets just win championships.

Jeff Molby July 22, 2010 at 7:25 am

4 titles in 110 years is substandard IMO

Not really. Do the math. There have been between 20 and 30 teams for most of that time. One team in particular has a very disproportionate number of titles. 4 is pretty darn close to the median.

Mark@HOU July 22, 2010 at 10:38 am

We’re 9th in titles, or 6th depending on how you count movable franchisees.

Jerry, thats the most reasonable response you’ve had. Things are the best since 1991. It takes players to win games. And contending and making playoffs is all a team can do. It’s basically a crapshoot once you get to the playoffs. If you seed the playoff teams by record, the winning teams are evenly distributed.

I would love to the Tigers to be the Wings, but it’s an unfair game. The Wings were highest spending teams before the cap and pay the entire cap now. The Wings have been a great example of sticking to your leaders. Ken Holland has been with the team 25 years. If the Wings would have cleaned house in the early to mid 90′s, he would have been gone. One of the reasons the Wings are successful because they have been using the same leadership and promoting from within.

Smith July 22, 2010 at 10:29 am

I want the Tigers to win the World Series, the Super Bowl, the Stanley Cup, and heck even the Grey Cup EVERY YEAR. But that’s just ridiculous, isn’t it? It’s not what you want, but what’s reasonable to expect.

And a title every 25 years is very average in MLB. Jeff has it right.

And besides, Mark@Hou listed all the teams that have done worse than us. It’d be different if we were the worst, or one of the worst, but as is we’re average.

Quit the griping… It could be worse. I guess it could be better, maybe the Tigers will win the Stanley Cup next year.

Mark in Chicago July 22, 2010 at 1:25 pm

personally, I’m disappointed they didn’t even show up for the World Cup this year.

Smith July 23, 2010 at 9:36 am

Those lazy bums. Fire DD!

Mark@HOU July 23, 2010 at 11:09 pm

I bet Inge can kick a soccer ball 130 yards.

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 23, 2010 at 3:44 pm

Where did I ever say that I want or expect the Tigers to win the World Series every year? I don’t expect the Tigers to win the World Series every year. But in order to make your stance seem stronger you will twist my words to make your argument lok better, eh Smith? I have said that 4 titles in 110 years is nothing to beat your chest about, and that IMO we should win the AL Central about 3 times per decade. If those are unreasonable stances, well then excuse the hell out of me. Before you give me the “there are five teams so every team should win the division twice per decade” argument (similar to your World Series titles argument), why then has the AL Central division crown rotated exclusively between CLE, MINN, and the CWS? How about the three divsion titles in 40 years of divisonal play for the Tigers, is that “about average” too?

I’ll answer that for you: no. Every team in our division has won more division titles (albeit we were all not in the same division the entire time) than we have since divisional play began. The Twins have won nine (four in old AL West), the Indians seven (all in the AL Central), the Royals six (all in the old AL West), and the White Sox five (2 in the old AL West). To be fair, we have one wild card appearance while our divisional foes have zero and these days a wild card berth is as good as a divisional title (so in effect we have four which is still dead last among our divisional peers the last 40 years). Even the lowly Chicago Cubs have five divisional titles since division play began in 1969. The point is that you’ve got to make the playoffs before you can a World Series. The point is that I’m not pleased with finishing second in our division and saying “at least its light years better than 2003″. That is a loser’s mentality. We need to start winning division titles in order to get to the ultimate prize, and these days that seems like the impossible dream. We have been in postion to do it and have failed miserably twice in the last four years with apparent hammerlocks on the division late in the season.

So if its management that has put those teams over the top in places like Minnesota, New York, Boston, etc. (as Mark in Houston argues and I agree with him there), isn’t it time we change management? At least the on the field management (i.e. Leyland)? I think it is.

ouchudied July 23, 2010 at 6:26 pm

Hey Jerry,

Cease and desist. Please.

Signed,
an overwhelming majority of DTW

Mark in Chicago July 23, 2010 at 9:34 pm

I’ll chime in:

“So if its management that has put those teams over the top in places like Minnesota, New York, Boston, etc. (as Mark in Houston argues and I agree with him there), isn’t it time we change management? At least the on the field management (i.e. Leyland)? I think it is.”

I don’t think it’s time for a change. I see your point, Jerry. I really do. But DD has only been the GM since the start of the 2002 season, which is a little over 8 years. And you have to consider what he had to work with at that point. There was essentially no farm system, gutted by years of horrible drafts, and obviously a scouting system that needed a major overhaul, and fixing all that takes time. Conventional wisdom suggests that it takes about 4 years for the typical prospect (with rare exceptions) to reach the majors. DD isn’t shy about promoting prospects, but 2003 was a lost cause by that point since the draft was just 2 months away, so it’s hardly fair to penalize him while he’s tearing down a broken system. So it’s reasonable to argue that DD probably didn’t start to have a real impact until the 2004 draft (hmmmm, the year they took Verlander).

If you start the clock with the 2004 season, DD has been to one world series in 6 years. But again, he was building from virtually nothing, so it was bound to take some time to develop a consistent flow of talent from the minors. David Chadd has been the guy that’s made the biggest difference and he wasn’t named until 2004, so it probably took another 1-2 years until things were humming along the way DD wanted. I think that flow of talent is starting to happen now as more and more guys are promoted to the parent club and actually have some impact. As for Leyland, he’s taken them to one WS in 4 years, which is consistent with what you are expecting.

To echo an earlier post, I don’t think DD and Jimmuh have had enough time, and while the 2nd half swoons aren’t any fun, I would argue that the master plan is working and they are actually delivering the results that you’re looking for.

Mark@HOU July 23, 2010 at 11:15 pm

We don’t need management changes at the field or front office levels. This is Leyland’s fifth year, He outperformed expectations in his 1st, 4th, and 5th years current.

I think there are two groups of managers, most don’t a difference. Those that can take you to a WS and those who can’t. Leyland is obviously in the former group and thus worth keeping around as long as he wants. He will probably be gone after 2011, or 2012 at the latest.

Keith (Mr. X) July 22, 2010 at 12:03 pm

The Tigers have been putting out the best team that they possibly can. Just look at their payroll. To climb out of the bottom so quickly they spent money a little recklessly, but it did get them the immediate results that they strived for. You can’t just buy a 1st place team. Getting to the next level takes many years of great drafts and good contracts. We’re about half way there. We have a great foundation for the team that can contend for many many years. Now it’s up to our minor system to develop players and to make wise financial moves. I don’t think we’ll see anymore long-term deals on marginal players because now we have a pipe-line of younger player coming in. Just be patient. Let the plan play itself out. The plan is working.

Mark@HOU July 22, 2010 at 1:12 pm

Amen.

Smith July 23, 2010 at 9:30 am

Agreed.

Kevin in Dallas July 22, 2010 at 2:13 pm

I don’t know what’s worse – Raburn swinging at that pitch, or Magglio’s baserunning blunder.

Mark@HOU July 22, 2010 at 2:43 pm

Raburn compounding the strikeout, by not running out the 3rd strike. Couldn’t have gotten both of them out if Raburn runs.

ouchudied July 22, 2010 at 2:16 pm

At the game, enjoying the beautiful weather and the swampass accumulating. Also wondering what Magglio was thinking when he decided to break for home…

ouchudied July 22, 2010 at 3:29 pm

Side note: there is a vuvuzela at the game. The world is ending

Kevin in Dallas July 22, 2010 at 3:39 pm

Brilliant. I need to order one for my office.

Good win Tigs. Solid all the way around. I have to admit, I had my doubts after JV got hit so hard in the first two innings. But he went from 40 pitches in the first two innings to 80 pitches over the last 6. Great game. We’re going to the WS.

Gonna go check out Cliff Lee tonight. See if he can go 0-3 with 3 complete games.

kathy July 24, 2010 at 8:40 pm

Oh, no. Bad news about Maggs. Awful. C’mon Billfer.

Mark in Chicago July 24, 2010 at 8:44 pm

The fallout as I see it from Maggs’ injury:

1) we are most likely no longer buyers at the deadline since somebody like Strieby or Wells becomes your everyday RF (or – yikes – Raburn)
2) I think Magg’s option won’t vest since he probably won’t get the required at-bats (without looking into the amount he needs over 2 seasons etc.)

kathy July 24, 2010 at 9:02 pm

Maybe he shouldn’t have been in the lineup. He already had a sore ankle. It makes me sick, but it’s too late now.

Mark in Chicago July 24, 2010 at 9:13 pm

It was probably tough to keep Maggs out of the lineup, I’m betting he really pushed hard to Leyland to let him play. I don’t like that Lamont sent him from third on Cabrera’s double, though. We already knew Maggs had a bad ankle and if you watch the replay he was hobbling as he was getting to third. Gene-o should have used better judgement there (not like he knew Maggs would get hurt, but still).

kathy July 24, 2010 at 9:28 pm

Mostly, I’ll just miss Magglio.

kathy July 24, 2010 at 9:08 pm

And Maggs probably knows he won’t vest and so do the fans.

Kevin in Dallas July 24, 2010 at 9:36 pm

I think with Boesch struggling in, we had to leave Maggs in. Tough break.

kathy July 24, 2010 at 9:04 pm

I’ve finally decided what kind of nickname Miguel Cabrera should have. When he hit that 2nd double, his face reminded me of a bull. El Toro! His nickname needs to be something bull related. He is truly a Bull.

Kevin in Dallas July 24, 2010 at 9:39 pm

Friends – should I throw up a temporary blog to use for game threads on Wordpress until billfer checks in? I’m happy to do so, and then shut it down once billfer resumes here (assuming he does).

If enough people chime in, I’ll get one going for tomorrow’s double header. No fan fare, just a place for us to talk about the individual games.

kathy July 24, 2010 at 9:47 pm

Will be working tomorrow and can only listen to the 2nd game on the radio.

kathy July 24, 2010 at 9:50 pm

Ryan Perry is coming out. I wonder how this one’s gonna end.

kathy July 24, 2010 at 9:45 pm

That’s fine by me. I just hope Billfer is OK and that he will soon tell us what he intends on doing with the blog.

Mark@HOU July 25, 2010 at 12:00 am

Ordonez option will most likely not vest. What to do next year with him?

Would declining the option but then extending him 2 and 20. 10 per be doable?

Is it worth it? Ordonez would be 38 when in 2012. I don’t like idea of paying him 15 million next year. But I don’t see us being serious contenders for Crawford or Werth. So Mags would be the better than the alternatives.

Thoughts?

Jerry The Tiger Fan July 25, 2010 at 3:34 am

Is Werth a free agent this winter? If so, I say you gotta go with him (if we can get him) over Maggs just because of the diminishing returns Maggs will reply as he creeps into his late thirties. Maggs has given us a lot but I don’t really want him back unless its as a DH (at a reduced price tag). His already less than stellar play in right field is only going to get worse with age and his ankle (very tough injuries to come back from).

Mark@HOU July 25, 2010 at 9:30 am

I don’t think Werth is an legitimate option. I would like him more too. But after the Angels and Yankees fight over Crawford, I bet the loser of that battle throws all its money at Werth. Not to mention Baltimore, Whitesox and Giants.

Keith (Mr. X) July 25, 2010 at 1:04 pm

I’m not a Werth fan. He’s already in his 30′s and he’s only has one full season where he’s played over 140 games. He could be a flash in the pan by the time he gets here.

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