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	<title>Comments on: Much ado about Carlos Guillen</title>
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	<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/</link>
	<description>News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball</description>
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		<title>By: Kathy</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135057</link>
		<dc:creator>Kathy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 16:55:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135057</guid>
		<description>Leland will probably do the same thing he did last year:  Pin the Wheel on the Donkey or Wheel of Fortune.  Same guys, different games.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Leland will probably do the same thing he did last year:  Pin the Wheel on the Donkey or Wheel of Fortune.  Same guys, different games.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre in Chi</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135055</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre in Chi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:53:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135055</guid>
		<description>Ugh indeed! He killed me for most of my fantasy season. I dropped him sometime in July...right in time for his enormous August numbers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ugh indeed! He killed me for most of my fantasy season. I dropped him sometime in July&#8230;right in time for his enormous August numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: RPS</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135054</link>
		<dc:creator>RPS</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 15:38:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135054</guid>
		<description>Dan Uggla?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan Uggla?</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135052</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:29:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135052</guid>
		<description>And the DH problem has been there for a while.  Here are our 08-09 DH numbers:

2008 DH OPS
.775 AL avg
.697 DET (13th of 14)

2009 DH OPS
.780 AL avg
.704 DET (13th of 14)

See a trend?  Basically we&#039;ve been putting out the equivalent of &quot;an Inge&quot; for a DH.  Even ADAM EVERETT has had seasons with higher OPS than our DH the last 2 seasons.  So, yeah, I think we can win with Everett at SS--but no, we can&#039;t win with Everett as our DH, which isn&#039;t far from what we&#039;ve tried for 2 years running.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the DH problem has been there for a while.  Here are our 08-09 DH numbers:</p>
<p>2008 DH OPS<br />
.775 AL avg<br />
.697 DET (13th of 14)</p>
<p>2009 DH OPS<br />
.780 AL avg<br />
.704 DET (13th of 14)</p>
<p>See a trend?  Basically we&#8217;ve been putting out the equivalent of &#8220;an Inge&#8221; for a DH.  Even ADAM EVERETT has had seasons with higher OPS than our DH the last 2 seasons.  So, yeah, I think we can win with Everett at SS&#8211;but no, we can&#8217;t win with Everett as our DH, which isn&#8217;t far from what we&#8217;ve tried for 2 years running.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135051</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 05:12:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135051</guid>
		<description>My point was that I don&#039;t think it&#039;s important how your offense is distributed--in other words, it&#039;s a team thing: if you have a 2B that produces x runs, a SS that produces 4x runs, and a 3B that produces 5x runs, it&#039;s no better or worse than if you have a 2B that produces 3x runs, a SS that produces x runs, and a 3B that produces 6x runs...etc...

But it DOES make a difference where you have good defense--a 2B with an .800 OPS doesn&#039;t help your offense more or less than a SS with an .800 OPS, but a 2B with a top glove is NOT worth as much as a SS with a top glove.  The two most valuable positions, defensively, are 1. C and 2. SS.

If there&#039;s anywhere you can afford a light hitter, it&#039;s at C, then SS (assuming they have the defense to justify it, of course).  And the worst positions for DET, relative to the rest of the league, were C (1.02 below avg OPS), SS (.075 below avg OPS) and DH (.074 below avg OPS).  

In other words, our lightest hitters are ALSO the best defensively on the team, AND playing the most important defensive positions--EXCEPT DH.  Unless you can find an avg+ OPS SS who is as good defensively as Everett, I&#039;d rather keep Everett and have an at least avg+ DH.  (C is more complicated, because of mysterious &quot;staff-handling&quot; qualities, etc).  This doesn&#039;t mean those positions can&#039;t be upgraded--there do exist very good fielders who hit better than Everett and Laird.  But this doesn&#039;t seem so much to me like the cause of all our troubles.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My point was that I don&#8217;t think it&#8217;s important how your offense is distributed&#8211;in other words, it&#8217;s a team thing: if you have a 2B that produces x runs, a SS that produces 4x runs, and a 3B that produces 5x runs, it&#8217;s no better or worse than if you have a 2B that produces 3x runs, a SS that produces x runs, and a 3B that produces 6x runs&#8230;etc&#8230;</p>
<p>But it DOES make a difference where you have good defense&#8211;a 2B with an .800 OPS doesn&#8217;t help your offense more or less than a SS with an .800 OPS, but a 2B with a top glove is NOT worth as much as a SS with a top glove.  The two most valuable positions, defensively, are 1. C and 2. SS.</p>
<p>If there&#8217;s anywhere you can afford a light hitter, it&#8217;s at C, then SS (assuming they have the defense to justify it, of course).  And the worst positions for DET, relative to the rest of the league, were C (1.02 below avg OPS), SS (.075 below avg OPS) and DH (.074 below avg OPS).  </p>
<p>In other words, our lightest hitters are ALSO the best defensively on the team, AND playing the most important defensive positions&#8211;EXCEPT DH.  Unless you can find an avg+ OPS SS who is as good defensively as Everett, I&#8217;d rather keep Everett and have an at least avg+ DH.  (C is more complicated, because of mysterious &#8220;staff-handling&#8221; qualities, etc).  This doesn&#8217;t mean those positions can&#8217;t be upgraded&#8211;there do exist very good fielders who hit better than Everett and Laird.  But this doesn&#8217;t seem so much to me like the cause of all our troubles.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre in Chi</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135050</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre in Chi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 04:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135050</guid>
		<description>You&#039;re totally right, you&#039;re less likely to win a WS with Everett as your starting SS. However, it did seem like you were isolating Everett in terms of why the Tigers didn&#039;t make the playoffs. Now, it could well be that the only reason the Tigers were in contention with him at SS was the sad state of the division this year, but focusing on Everett doesn&#039;t make sense to me. 

The problem is, Everett played almost exactly as expected -- stellar defense, weak bat. On the other hand, players who were counted on for their offense (and little else) failed to deliver as expected (Guillen and Maggs to name just two). If these others play up to expectations, in all likelihood, the Tigers are in the playoffs where, with their pitching, anything could happen (good or bad).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You&#8217;re totally right, you&#8217;re less likely to win a WS with Everett as your starting SS. However, it did seem like you were isolating Everett in terms of why the Tigers didn&#8217;t make the playoffs. Now, it could well be that the only reason the Tigers were in contention with him at SS was the sad state of the division this year, but focusing on Everett doesn&#8217;t make sense to me. </p>
<p>The problem is, Everett played almost exactly as expected &#8212; stellar defense, weak bat. On the other hand, players who were counted on for their offense (and little else) failed to deliver as expected (Guillen and Maggs to name just two). If these others play up to expectations, in all likelihood, the Tigers are in the playoffs where, with their pitching, anything could happen (good or bad).</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135049</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 03:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135049</guid>
		<description>Guys, I love you like brothers I have never met. But when you go on and on and on about how Adam Everett is good enough to be the shortstop on a championship team you guys sound like a bunch of sabermetric nerds. Sorry! Could you make an argument that Everett is more cost efficient then Jeter? Sure, and you could make an argument that The Monkees were a more financially efficient pop band than the Beatles. 
But all common sense would just say you were just so wrong. Could you win a World Series with Everett as your shortstop? Sure, the Ravens won a Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer. George H.W. Bush got elected with Dan Quayle as his VP. But goodness gracious it ain&#039;t bloody likely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Guys, I love you like brothers I have never met. But when you go on and on and on about how Adam Everett is good enough to be the shortstop on a championship team you guys sound like a bunch of sabermetric nerds. Sorry! Could you make an argument that Everett is more cost efficient then Jeter? Sure, and you could make an argument that The Monkees were a more financially efficient pop band than the Beatles.<br />
But all common sense would just say you were just so wrong. Could you win a World Series with Everett as your shortstop? Sure, the Ravens won a Super Bowl with Trent Dilfer. George H.W. Bush got elected with Dan Quayle as his VP. But goodness gracious it ain&#8217;t bloody likely.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Panas</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135047</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Panas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 30 Oct 2009 00:11:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135047</guid>
		<description>The Tigers missed the playoffs by one game and once you make the playoffs, anything can happen.  They Tigers could surely make the World Series with Everett on their team.  That doesn&#039;t mean I wouldn&#039;t want to upgrade him but he wouldn&#039;t be the first starter I&#039;d replace.  I&#039;d start by finding a DH or a collection of DHs who didn&#039;t hit below replacement level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Tigers missed the playoffs by one game and once you make the playoffs, anything can happen.  They Tigers could surely make the World Series with Everett on their team.  That doesn&#8217;t mean I wouldn&#8217;t want to upgrade him but he wouldn&#8217;t be the first starter I&#8217;d replace.  I&#8217;d start by finding a DH or a collection of DHs who didn&#8217;t hit below replacement level.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135046</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 23:03:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135046</guid>
		<description>Oh rats, Andre beat me to the Lugo reference--and how often do you get to make those?  Anyway the last AL team to play a WS with a SS with an OPS over .700 was us, and he&#039;s still on the roster, so there you go (not counting WS in progress of course...who&#039;s gonna be bold here and say Everett&#039;s a better deal, dollar per dollar, than Jeter?  It&#039;s not a completely ridiculous proposition...)

There is no way to show that offensive production, AT CERTAIN POSITIONS, is necessary to winning a pennant, except in fantasy leagues.  And it doesn&#039;t make sense--and this is a pet peeve of mine, not a criticism of Stephen--to distinguish between a line-up good enough to win games, but not get to the next level.  What quality would allow a team to win x number of games with a certain lineup, but make them unable to win 4 of 7 vs a given opponent? (Other than pitching rotation factors).  Are you saying the Tigers with Everett could beat teams&#039; 4 and 5 starters, but not their 1-3 guys?  I just don&#039;t see it...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh rats, Andre beat me to the Lugo reference&#8211;and how often do you get to make those?  Anyway the last AL team to play a WS with a SS with an OPS over .700 was us, and he&#8217;s still on the roster, so there you go (not counting WS in progress of course&#8230;who&#8217;s gonna be bold here and say Everett&#8217;s a better deal, dollar per dollar, than Jeter?  It&#8217;s not a completely ridiculous proposition&#8230;)</p>
<p>There is no way to show that offensive production, AT CERTAIN POSITIONS, is necessary to winning a pennant, except in fantasy leagues.  And it doesn&#8217;t make sense&#8211;and this is a pet peeve of mine, not a criticism of Stephen&#8211;to distinguish between a line-up good enough to win games, but not get to the next level.  What quality would allow a team to win x number of games with a certain lineup, but make them unable to win 4 of 7 vs a given opponent? (Other than pitching rotation factors).  Are you saying the Tigers with Everett could beat teams&#8217; 4 and 5 starters, but not their 1-3 guys?  I just don&#8217;t see it&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Andre in Chi</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135045</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre in Chi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:44:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135045</guid>
		<description>&quot;You are not going to represent the American League in the World Series with a guy with an OPS+ of 60.&quot;

You&#039;re right, you need at least an OPS+ of 65 (see Julio Lugo and the 2007 RedSox).

&quot;A true contender is going to have too many quality players to start a one-dimensional Everett-type player.&quot;

I think this is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than the one you mention; I mean, can there be a two-dimensional Everett-type player? 

Plenty of teams get away with one-dimensional offensive players (Manny Ramirez and Paul Konerko come to mind, although they played &quot;light&quot; defensive positions). The reverse, it seems, should be true of one-dimensional defensive players at the &quot;heavy&quot; positions. 

&quot;I’m pretty sure Andre you know what I mean, i.e. division titles, pennants etc.. &quot;

I know what you mean here (now, it was vague enough at the time for me to get all facetious about it), I just don&#039;t agree with it. Everett had a higher OPS in October than the other players I mentioned. If that group doesn&#039;t tank in that crucial period...who knows, maybe the bar gets lowered to 60 OPS+.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;You are not going to represent the American League in the World Series with a guy with an OPS+ of 60.&#8221;</p>
<p>You&#8217;re right, you need at least an OPS+ of 65 (see Julio Lugo and the 2007 RedSox).</p>
<p>&#8220;A true contender is going to have too many quality players to start a one-dimensional Everett-type player.&#8221;</p>
<p>I think this is more of a self-fulfilling prophecy than the one you mention; I mean, can there be a two-dimensional Everett-type player? </p>
<p>Plenty of teams get away with one-dimensional offensive players (Manny Ramirez and Paul Konerko come to mind, although they played &#8220;light&#8221; defensive positions). The reverse, it seems, should be true of one-dimensional defensive players at the &#8220;heavy&#8221; positions. </p>
<p>&#8220;I’m pretty sure Andre you know what I mean, i.e. division titles, pennants etc.. &#8221;</p>
<p>I know what you mean here (now, it was vague enough at the time for me to get all facetious about it), I just don&#8217;t agree with it. Everett had a higher OPS in October than the other players I mentioned. If that group doesn&#8217;t tank in that crucial period&#8230;who knows, maybe the bar gets lowered to 60 OPS+.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135044</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 22:23:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135044</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m pretty sure Andre you know what I mean, i.e. division titles, pennants etc.. I&#039;m not talking about the rest of the players. You are not going to represent the American League in the World Series with a guy with an OPS+ of 60. It&#039;s never going to happen and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. A true contender is going to have too many quality players to start a one-dimensional Everett-type player. And trust me, Adam Everett is as one dimensional as Rob Deer. And an up-an-comer is going to upgrade at deadline time. Throw him a 100 ab&#039;s and use him as a late inning replacement that&#039;s fine.  He&#039;s a nice guy and an excellent 24th or 25th man, but he&#039;s not a starter on a contender.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure Andre you know what I mean, i.e. division titles, pennants etc.. I&#8217;m not talking about the rest of the players. You are not going to represent the American League in the World Series with a guy with an OPS+ of 60. It&#8217;s never going to happen and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. A true contender is going to have too many quality players to start a one-dimensional Everett-type player. And trust me, Adam Everett is as one dimensional as Rob Deer. And an up-an-comer is going to upgrade at deadline time. Throw him a 100 ab&#8217;s and use him as a late inning replacement that&#8217;s fine.  He&#8217;s a nice guy and an excellent 24th or 25th man, but he&#8217;s not a starter on a contender.</p>
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		<title>By: Andre in Chi</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135043</link>
		<dc:creator>Andre in Chi</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135043</guid>
		<description>Other than 86 games right? 

I mean, surely it was Adam holding the Tigers back from a playoff berth and not, lets say: Guillen, Huff, Polanco, and Granderson all going roughly .200 avg or lower in October.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Other than 86 games right? </p>
<p>I mean, surely it was Adam holding the Tigers back from a playoff berth and not, lets say: Guillen, Huff, Polanco, and Granderson all going roughly .200 avg or lower in October.</p>
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		<title>By: Stephen</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135042</link>
		<dc:creator>Stephen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 21:24:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135042</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not going to weigh in whether Adam Everett is worth 4m or 1m. All I know is that there&#039;s no way the Tigers win anything with him at shortstop.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not going to weigh in whether Adam Everett is worth 4m or 1m. All I know is that there&#8217;s no way the Tigers win anything with him at shortstop.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark in Chicago</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135039</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark in Chicago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 18:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135039</guid>
		<description>...which is consistent with his aversion to having Adam Everett on the team.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8230;which is consistent with his aversion to having Adam Everett on the team.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Panas</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/10/much-ado-about-carlos-guillen/#comment-135037</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Panas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:29:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=5463#comment-135037</guid>
		<description>I believe the discrepancies between wOBA and TSE&#039;s formula are due to TSE weighting slugging stats too much.  Every time I see a list of player&#039;s OE%, it looks like it favors players with high slugging and low OBP a little more than it should.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I believe the discrepancies between wOBA and TSE&#8217;s formula are due to TSE weighting slugging stats too much.  Every time I see a list of player&#8217;s OE%, it looks like it favors players with high slugging and low OBP a little more than it should.</p>
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