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	<title>Comments on: Wilkin Ramirez recalled</title>
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	<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/</link>
	<description>News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball</description>
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		<title>By: scotsw</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125753</link>
		<dc:creator>scotsw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 05 Aug 2009 00:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125753</guid>
		<description>Coleman and Billfer are more interesting and knowledgable writers than any of the guys writing for the Michigan media, at least as far as baseball nuts-n-bolts. Some other people here add a lot of great info, too. Why I keep coming back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coleman and Billfer are more interesting and knowledgable writers than any of the guys writing for the Michigan media, at least as far as baseball nuts-n-bolts. Some other people here add a lot of great info, too. Why I keep coming back.</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125748</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 23:47:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125748</guid>
		<description>There&#039;s no doubt he&#039;s not a leadoff hitter.  But it is what it is until we have something better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s no doubt he&#8217;s not a leadoff hitter.  But it is what it is until we have something better.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125739</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 23:08:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125739</guid>
		<description>The discussion of Granderson leading off reminds me of a point I&#039;ve been meaning to make for a while, which is that I think Granderson and Inge have been underappreciated for what they&#039;ve done this season as far as taking pitches.

It&#039;s easy to sit here and complain about the Tigers letting pitchers off easy with low pitch counts (which they certainly do, with the lowest pitches/plate appearance in the entire league); what&#039;s not as obvious is the toll that can take on the guys making a consistent effort.  

Inge and Granderson have been 1-2 on the team the entire season in pitches / plate appearance; in fact they are the ONLY two on the team above league average, and no other team only has 2 average or above guys.  In other words they have been going it alone in a 2-man pitch-count war.

This is completely speculative, but I think this is part of Granderson&#039;s problem at the plate, and part of his tentative swing-taking good pitches-swinging at bad pitches funk.  Granderson has said that batting leadoff and 5th are very different, because you&#039;re playing a different role.  I think working the pitch count is part of what he sees as his leadoff role, and has been giving him trouble.

Any time you take a 1st pitch for strike one your odds of getting on base plummet; once you get 2 strikes good luck, you&#039;re in Sardinha land.  Inge has had a ridiculous  245 PAs begin with an 0-1 count, and started 0-2 122 times.  It&#039;s pretty incredible what he&#039;s accomplished considering.  

As of last week, there was *one* player in the major leagues leading his team in both RBI and PPA, and he&#039;s a Tiger.

When people have griped about Cabrera swinging at 1st pitches, billfer and others have rightly been quick to point out why this is not a bad thing:  Cabrera is batting .400 with a 1.086 OPS on 1st pitch hitting.  

Try these numbers also:  .480/1.519 (Inge), .407/1.407 (Granderson).  
Well why in the world don&#039;t they swing at 1st pitches more?  Because they are the Pitch-Count Duo, doing what they think is best for the team.

A noble effort; but also I think a doomed one.  Two guys can&#039;t do enough to make a difference.  The difference between DET being worst and way worst in PPA I think is minimal--you need a lot more pitches to affect the game (look at Tampa Bay for a good example of how this works--almost the entire team is above league average, and they go through opposing pitchers quickly).

It may not matter much for Inge at this point, but I think Granderson may as well swing away and stop worrying about working pitchers; I think moving him to 5th in the order will make this easier on him.  Forget the pitch count, let&#039;s see a few more of those 1.407 OPS ABs!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The discussion of Granderson leading off reminds me of a point I&#8217;ve been meaning to make for a while, which is that I think Granderson and Inge have been underappreciated for what they&#8217;ve done this season as far as taking pitches.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s easy to sit here and complain about the Tigers letting pitchers off easy with low pitch counts (which they certainly do, with the lowest pitches/plate appearance in the entire league); what&#8217;s not as obvious is the toll that can take on the guys making a consistent effort.  </p>
<p>Inge and Granderson have been 1-2 on the team the entire season in pitches / plate appearance; in fact they are the ONLY two on the team above league average, and no other team only has 2 average or above guys.  In other words they have been going it alone in a 2-man pitch-count war.</p>
<p>This is completely speculative, but I think this is part of Granderson&#8217;s problem at the plate, and part of his tentative swing-taking good pitches-swinging at bad pitches funk.  Granderson has said that batting leadoff and 5th are very different, because you&#8217;re playing a different role.  I think working the pitch count is part of what he sees as his leadoff role, and has been giving him trouble.</p>
<p>Any time you take a 1st pitch for strike one your odds of getting on base plummet; once you get 2 strikes good luck, you&#8217;re in Sardinha land.  Inge has had a ridiculous  245 PAs begin with an 0-1 count, and started 0-2 122 times.  It&#8217;s pretty incredible what he&#8217;s accomplished considering.  </p>
<p>As of last week, there was *one* player in the major leagues leading his team in both RBI and PPA, and he&#8217;s a Tiger.</p>
<p>When people have griped about Cabrera swinging at 1st pitches, billfer and others have rightly been quick to point out why this is not a bad thing:  Cabrera is batting .400 with a 1.086 OPS on 1st pitch hitting.  </p>
<p>Try these numbers also:  .480/1.519 (Inge), .407/1.407 (Granderson).<br />
Well why in the world don&#8217;t they swing at 1st pitches more?  Because they are the Pitch-Count Duo, doing what they think is best for the team.</p>
<p>A noble effort; but also I think a doomed one.  Two guys can&#8217;t do enough to make a difference.  The difference between DET being worst and way worst in PPA I think is minimal&#8211;you need a lot more pitches to affect the game (look at Tampa Bay for a good example of how this works&#8211;almost the entire team is above league average, and they go through opposing pitchers quickly).</p>
<p>It may not matter much for Inge at this point, but I think Granderson may as well swing away and stop worrying about working pitchers; I think moving him to 5th in the order will make this easier on him.  Forget the pitch count, let&#8217;s see a few more of those 1.407 OPS ABs!!</p>
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		<title>By: Keith (Mr. X)</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125734</link>
		<dc:creator>Keith (Mr. X)</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125734</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s not true at all.  The Tigers would still be responsible for the contract if the option years kick in.

Also what most people fail to realize is that Magglio is hitting lefty pitchers quite well.  He has a .316 avg, .505 SLG, and a .874 OPS vs Lefties.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s not true at all.  The Tigers would still be responsible for the contract if the option years kick in.</p>
<p>Also what most people fail to realize is that Magglio is hitting lefty pitchers quite well.  He has a .316 avg, .505 SLG, and a .874 OPS vs Lefties.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125733</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125733</guid>
		<description>He was among the worst in the AL last season also.  

I suppose you could wait until he retires, look at a large sample size, and say, hmm, I guess maybe he should&#039;ve been batting 5th...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>He was among the worst in the AL last season also.  </p>
<p>I suppose you could wait until he retires, look at a large sample size, and say, hmm, I guess maybe he should&#8217;ve been batting 5th&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125732</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:28:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125732</guid>
		<description>I know he&#039;s been bad leading off, but I don&#039;t think we can make too much of it.  Far too small of a sample size.  I definitely agree that his overall OBP/BA etc. are far too low and he should probably reevaluate his hitting approach in the offseason.

Not to say that I don&#039;t think Granderson shouldn&#039;t be leading off - he really isn&#039;t a leadoff hitter.  Too bad he is the best we have, kind of, this year.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I know he&#8217;s been bad leading off, but I don&#8217;t think we can make too much of it.  Far too small of a sample size.  I definitely agree that his overall OBP/BA etc. are far too low and he should probably reevaluate his hitting approach in the offseason.</p>
<p>Not to say that I don&#8217;t think Granderson shouldn&#8217;t be leading off &#8211; he really isn&#8217;t a leadoff hitter.  Too bad he is the best we have, kind of, this year.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125731</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:26:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125731</guid>
		<description>Oh man, you don&#039;t have to convince me of that--either part of it.  It&#039;s one of those &quot;Polanco is a 2 hitter&quot; things so embedded in Leyland&#039;s mind that even if you convinced him the Tigers would score more with Polanco somewhere else in the order...he would leave him batting 2nd anyway.  Leyland actually made a comment once about how Polanco is the guy you want up after Granderson hits a triple--actually he may be right there, but how often does THAT happen.  I&#039;d rather see him batting 6th and making contact with a runner on 3rd instead of watching Thames/Raburn/whoever strikeout.  He&#039;s actually a pretty good RBI guy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Oh man, you don&#8217;t have to convince me of that&#8211;either part of it.  It&#8217;s one of those &#8220;Polanco is a 2 hitter&#8221; things so embedded in Leyland&#8217;s mind that even if you convinced him the Tigers would score more with Polanco somewhere else in the order&#8230;he would leave him batting 2nd anyway.  Leyland actually made a comment once about how Polanco is the guy you want up after Granderson hits a triple&#8211;actually he may be right there, but how often does THAT happen.  I&#8217;d rather see him batting 6th and making contact with a runner on 3rd instead of watching Thames/Raburn/whoever strikeout.  He&#8217;s actually a pretty good RBI guy.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark in Chicago</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125729</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark in Chicago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:16:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125729</guid>
		<description>Part of the solution might be getting Polanco out of the 2-spot in the order, but that&#039;s probably just crazy talk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Part of the solution might be getting Polanco out of the 2-spot in the order, but that&#8217;s probably just crazy talk.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125728</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:12:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125728</guid>
		<description>Correction to the above:  Granderson has been 1st inning GIDP bait 5 times, the other Polanco 1st inning GIDP was one of the games when Raburn was leading off.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Correction to the above:  Granderson has been 1st inning GIDP bait 5 times, the other Polanco 1st inning GIDP was one of the games when Raburn was leading off.</p>
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		<title>By: Coleman</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125726</link>
		<dc:creator>Coleman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125726</guid>
		<description>If you look at actual leadoff at-bats only--as in ABs beginning the game--Curtis is one the worst leadoff hitter in the AL, with a 2-1 strikeout to walk ratio and only 16 runs scored.  His stats leading off other innings besides the 1st are also bad--Larish, Cabrera, Inge, Santiago, Ordonez, and Raburn are all better.  His stats &quot;while batting 1st&quot; aren&#039;t bad, but the hits come in the later innings when he isn&#039;t actually leading off anything.

His leadoff &quot;speed&quot; if any has been of small use.  Again, in 1st innings, he has stolen only 4 bases in 6 attempts, while being on the front end of the Polanco GIDP 6 times (considering which you have to wonder why Leyland doesn&#039;t have him running more often, but that&#039;s another story).

While I agree Granderson needs a day off right now, I wouldn&#039;t mind seeing him come back in the middle of the order, which I think would benefit him, and Cabrera, with the only downside being several fewer ABs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you look at actual leadoff at-bats only&#8211;as in ABs beginning the game&#8211;Curtis is one the worst leadoff hitter in the AL, with a 2-1 strikeout to walk ratio and only 16 runs scored.  His stats leading off other innings besides the 1st are also bad&#8211;Larish, Cabrera, Inge, Santiago, Ordonez, and Raburn are all better.  His stats &#8220;while batting 1st&#8221; aren&#8217;t bad, but the hits come in the later innings when he isn&#8217;t actually leading off anything.</p>
<p>His leadoff &#8220;speed&#8221; if any has been of small use.  Again, in 1st innings, he has stolen only 4 bases in 6 attempts, while being on the front end of the Polanco GIDP 6 times (considering which you have to wonder why Leyland doesn&#8217;t have him running more often, but that&#8217;s another story).</p>
<p>While I agree Granderson needs a day off right now, I wouldn&#8217;t mind seeing him come back in the middle of the order, which I think would benefit him, and Cabrera, with the only downside being several fewer ABs.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark in Chicago</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125725</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark in Chicago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:04:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125725</guid>
		<description>And how does a higher K% hurt his value as a leadoff hitter?  For that matter, how does a lower BB% hurt his value when his OBP (1-outmaking) is higher?

I am not saying Ramirez is the proto-typical leadoff hitter, I&#039;m saying he&#039;s not a worse option than Granderson.

EDIT: There&#039;s no guarantee that Ramirez&#039; AAA numbers will translate to the majors, but he has at least exhibited an acceptable skillset to serve as a leadoff hitter.  To dismiss him as a leadoff hitter without citing any particular reason why doesn&#039;t make sense to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And how does a higher K% hurt his value as a leadoff hitter?  For that matter, how does a lower BB% hurt his value when his OBP (1-outmaking) is higher?</p>
<p>I am not saying Ramirez is the proto-typical leadoff hitter, I&#8217;m saying he&#8217;s not a worse option than Granderson.</p>
<p>EDIT: There&#8217;s no guarantee that Ramirez&#8217; AAA numbers will translate to the majors, but he has at least exhibited an acceptable skillset to serve as a leadoff hitter.  To dismiss him as a leadoff hitter without citing any particular reason why doesn&#8217;t make sense to me.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125724</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 22:03:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125724</guid>
		<description>Can we really compare stats from the minors with stats in the majors?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Can we really compare stats from the minors with stats in the majors?</p>
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		<title>By: Grand Cards</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125723</link>
		<dc:creator>Grand Cards</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125723</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll take &quot;He Strikes Out More and Walks Less Than Granderson&quot; for $200, Alex.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll take &#8220;He Strikes Out More and Walks Less Than Granderson&#8221; for $200, Alex.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark in Chicago</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125722</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark in Chicago</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125722</guid>
		<description>Ramirez posted a .351 OBP at Toledo while Granderson has .340 OBP.  How exactly does that make him &quot;less of a leadoff hitter&quot; than Granderson?

If speed/stolen bases is your thing, Ramirez was 30/39 in steals at Toledo (77%) while Curtis is 19/25 (76%).

What is it that Curtis posseses that makes him a better option to lead off over Ramirez (aside from experience)?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ramirez posted a .351 OBP at Toledo while Granderson has .340 OBP.  How exactly does that make him &#8220;less of a leadoff hitter&#8221; than Granderson?</p>
<p>If speed/stolen bases is your thing, Ramirez was 30/39 in steals at Toledo (77%) while Curtis is 19/25 (76%).</p>
<p>What is it that Curtis posseses that makes him a better option to lead off over Ramirez (aside from experience)?</p>
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		<title>By: Ron</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125720</link>
		<dc:creator>Ron</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Aug 2009 21:24:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/wilkin-ramirez-recalled/#comment-125720</guid>
		<description>Ramirez is less of a leadoff hitter than Granderson is.  I can&#039;t imagine that him being there is in any way permanent.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ramirez is less of a leadoff hitter than Granderson is.  I can&#8217;t imagine that him being there is in any way permanent.</p>
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