Comments on: Game 2009.118: Mariners at Tigers http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Andrew in Toronto http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127714 Andrew in Toronto Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:37:20 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127714 He must be tired running in from center field when he leads off the inning! He must be tired running in from center field when he leads off the inning!

]]> By: Coleman http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127713 Coleman Wed, 19 Aug 2009 20:06:49 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127713 That's the odd thing. Granderson's OBP isn't so bad, but then when you break it down by when he's actually leading off the game, vs other times (which includes some time batting 5th in the lineup--where he put up a .400 OBP by the way) you get a different picture. Leading off the game/inning his OBP is .316, and was below .300 most of the season. He had a hot streak after the break, which made me hopefull he had gotten out of whatever he was in, but the last few games he hasn't looked so good. This isn't a new problem--last season in 124 PAs as the leadoff batter in the game Granderson put up a .266 OBP (.194 BA .611 OPS), 2nd worst in the AL, and consequently making the Tigers one of the worst 1st inning teams in the league. (They are better this season; after an awful start they have become just a bit below average). So my point isn't that Granderson's OBP is bad--it's that his leadoff OBP is bad, and that he actually may hit better somewhere else in the lineup when you take the leadoff burden away from him. Sure, he'll have fewer PAs lower in the lineup. But the PAs he'll be giving up are the ones where he isn't hitting anyway. Edit: I forgot to add one more thing. As the one guy on the team who just never hits into DPs, we're wasting him batting him once a game with nobody ever on 1st...maybe Polanco or Ordonez should leadoff now that I think about it... That’s the odd thing. Granderson’s OBP isn’t so bad, but then when you break it down by when he’s actually leading off the game, vs other times (which includes some time batting 5th in the lineup–where he put up a .400 OBP by the way) you get a different picture. Leading off the game/inning his OBP is .316, and was below .300 most of the season. He had a hot streak after the break, which made me hopefull he had gotten out of whatever he was in, but the last few games he hasn’t looked so good.

This isn’t a new problem–last season in 124 PAs as the leadoff batter in the game Granderson put up a .266 OBP (.194 BA .611 OPS), 2nd worst in the AL, and consequently making the Tigers one of the worst 1st inning teams in the league. (They are better this season; after an awful start they have become just a bit below average).

So my point isn’t that Granderson’s OBP is bad–it’s that his leadoff OBP is bad, and that he actually may hit better somewhere else in the lineup when you take the leadoff burden away from him. Sure, he’ll have fewer PAs lower in the lineup. But the PAs he’ll be giving up are the ones where he isn’t hitting anyway.

Edit: I forgot to add one more thing. As the one guy on the team who just never hits into DPs, we’re wasting him batting him once a game with nobody ever on 1st…maybe Polanco or Ordonez should leadoff now that I think about it…

]]> By: Andrew in Toronto http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127709 Andrew in Toronto Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:46:51 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127709 Surprisingly, Granderson actually has the second highest OBP on the team. That's one reason to keep him leadoff... although we really ought to have somebody who can do better than .340! Surprisingly, Granderson actually has the second highest OBP on the team. That’s one reason to keep him leadoff… although we really ought to have somebody who can do better than .340!

]]> By: Steve http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127708 Steve Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:38:24 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127708 OK, Lets do it. I will call Smokey right now. I will be at the game tonight (coffee mug night) and doing Nemos Steve OK, Lets do it. I will call Smokey right now.

I will be at the game tonight (coffee mug night) and doing Nemos

Steve

]]> By: Coleman http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127706 Coleman Wed, 19 Aug 2009 18:06:34 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127706 I don't really have a pick, that's the problem--and I suspect it's why Uncle Smokey leaves him there. A couple of months ago my pick was Inge (takes a lot of walks, high pitch count guy, decent baserunner .280 .325 .560 .885 in 80 games as leadoff batter career), but that's obviously a bad idea nowadays. You can see why with his speed Anderson looked appealing, but once i caught a few of his 1st pitch weak groundouts I cooled on him in a hurry. I might try Raburn, when he's playing--he has a similar OBP as Clete, strikes out a tad less, and knows what he's doing on the basepaths. I think it's worth moving Granderson in the order though, if for no other reason than to help break him out of the Thames-like hot-cold cycle he is in. I don’t really have a pick, that’s the problem–and I suspect it’s why Uncle Smokey leaves him there. A couple of months ago my pick was Inge (takes a lot of walks, high pitch count guy, decent baserunner .280 .325 .560 .885 in 80 games as leadoff batter career), but that’s obviously a bad idea nowadays. You can see why with his speed Anderson looked appealing, but once i caught a few of his 1st pitch weak groundouts I cooled on him in a hurry. I might try Raburn, when he’s playing–he has a similar OBP as Clete, strikes out a tad less, and knows what he’s doing on the basepaths. I think it’s worth moving Granderson in the order though, if for no other reason than to help break him out of the Thames-like hot-cold cycle he is in.

]]> By: Andre in Chi http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127705 Andre in Chi Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:57:31 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127705 Coleman, You're the Granderson-leadoff-stat expert -- since my memory sucks, who's your pick to leadoff? He's had a rough stretch recently, but I was thinking maybe Clete -- even with the slump he gets on just about as much as Granderson. If you drop Grandy to 3rd in the lineup, you have a L,R,L,R,L combo assuming Thomas, Polanco, Grandy, Cabrera, Huff. I'd suggest Guillen leading off, but his lack of speed seems to offset the on-base skills. Thoughts? Coleman,

You’re the Granderson-leadoff-stat expert — since my memory sucks, who’s your pick to leadoff?

He’s had a rough stretch recently, but I was thinking maybe Clete — even with the slump he gets on just about as much as Granderson. If you drop Grandy to 3rd in the lineup, you have a L,R,L,R,L combo assuming Thomas, Polanco, Grandy, Cabrera, Huff. I’d suggest Guillen leading off, but his lack of speed seems to offset the on-base skills.

Thoughts?

]]> By: Andre in Chi http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127703 Andre in Chi Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:19:49 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127703 "I hope they are not considering letting [Rodney] walk after 2009. Who else will close next year? " Pre-season odds on this phrase NOT being sarcasm? “I hope they are not considering letting [Rodney] walk after 2009. Who else will close next year? ”

Pre-season odds on this phrase NOT being sarcasm?

]]> By: Andre in Chi http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127702 Andre in Chi Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:17:42 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127702 That phrase is the direct result of me posting sans caffeine. That phrase is the direct result of me posting sans caffeine.

]]> By: Coleman http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127701 Coleman Wed, 19 Aug 2009 17:14:15 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127701 Ah, the half-yes...I'm learning important new tools every day! And I'm presuming one could pull out the half-no also... Ah, the half-yes…I’m learning important new tools every day!

And I’m presuming one could pull out the half-no also…

]]> By: Joel in Seattle http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127700 Joel in Seattle Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:43:45 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127700 Now you see why wins are about the most useless statistic available to evaluate a pitcher. Especially a reliever. Now you see why wins are about the most useless statistic available to evaluate a pitcher. Especially a reliever.

]]> By: Eric Cioe http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127699 Eric Cioe Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:28:23 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127699 Verlander could go 7 and Lyon could finish the game. Easy. Verlander could go 7 and Lyon could finish the game. Easy.

]]> By: Brad http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127697 Brad Wed, 19 Aug 2009 16:12:40 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127697 re: Is the pen thin tomorrow? I think Leyland is counting on Verlander to go eight innings. re: Is the pen thin tomorrow?

I think Leyland is counting on Verlander to go eight innings.

]]> By: Andre in Chi http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127696 Andre in Chi Wed, 19 Aug 2009 15:25:21 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127696 "plating runs (not collecting hits) is the whole purpose of hitting." Yes and half-yes (as opposed to "no"). The cause of plating runs tends to be aided by actually having men on, unless you happen to hit tons of HRs in which case you're plating yourself. I do tend to agree with you though that average needs to be taken in context (as do most stats), and that RBI rates are worth looking at. Take Magglio in August. He's by far having his best stretch of numbers in terms of avg/obp/ops @ .356/.370/.992 over 45 ABs...but he's only got 5 runs/2 hr/5 rbi to show for it. Meanwhile, Thomas has 9 runs/1 hr/5 rbi while hitting for .163/.305/.550. I'm sure that this is in part due to the team not capitalizing on Magglio's production as much as it has with Thomas, and batting order has some impact...but its this kind of thing that has me agreeing on paying more attention to RBI rates. “plating runs (not collecting hits) is the whole purpose of hitting.”

Yes and half-yes (as opposed to “no”). The cause of plating runs tends to be aided by actually having men on, unless you happen to hit tons of HRs in which case you’re plating yourself. I do tend to agree with you though that average needs to be taken in context (as do most stats), and that RBI rates are worth looking at.

Take Magglio in August. He’s by far having his best stretch of numbers in terms of avg/obp/ops @ .356/.370/.992 over 45 ABs…but he’s only got 5 runs/2 hr/5 rbi to show for it. Meanwhile, Thomas has 9 runs/1 hr/5 rbi while hitting for .163/.305/.550.

I’m sure that this is in part due to the team not capitalizing on Magglio’s production as much as it has with Thomas, and batting order has some impact…but its this kind of thing that has me agreeing on paying more attention to RBI rates.

]]> By: scotsw http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127695 scotsw Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:56:32 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127695 Obviously, the Tigers will need to move one of their OF before long. I presume Huff, Grandy, and Guillen are safe. Thomas could be optioned. It seems more likely that Raburn and Thames could be trade bait, and Ordonez, obviously, is in peril of being chopped. (Unless Dombrowski believes that the Ordonez slump was tied to Mrs. Ordonez's health issues, and that Maggs will be a .300-type hitter going forward.) Obviously, the Tigers will need to move one of their OF before long. I presume Huff, Grandy, and Guillen are safe. Thomas could be optioned. It seems more likely that Raburn and Thames could be trade bait, and Ordonez, obviously, is in peril of being chopped. (Unless Dombrowski believes that the Ordonez slump was tied to Mrs. Ordonez’s health issues, and that Maggs will be a .300-type hitter going forward.)

]]> By: scotsw http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127694 scotsw Wed, 19 Aug 2009 14:51:36 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/08/game-2009-118-mariners-at-tigers/#comment-127694 You are an encyclopedia. Cabrera gets a pass from me. Nobody hitting like he does can be criticized for any thing he does at the plate, even if he decided to go up there left-handed once in a while. Who am I to tell him what to do? I remember Leyland was interviewed the Spring Cabrera came in, and the reporter asked him what he could tell Cabby about hitting. "Not one thing," Leyland replied. Raburn and Thomas are role players, and have no excuse for not moving runners over. HOWEVER, Cabrera averages 1 RBI per 6.833 plate appearances. Thomas is averaging 1 per 7.121 PA, and Raburn is at 6.323 PA. Raburn is getting the job done. I've never seen that stat calculated before, and now I can't think why not -- it's arguably much more important than batting average, as plating runs (not collecting hits) is the whole purpose of hitting. You are an encyclopedia.

Cabrera gets a pass from me. Nobody hitting like he does can be criticized for any thing he does at the plate, even if he decided to go up there left-handed once in a while. Who am I to tell him what to do? I remember Leyland was interviewed the Spring Cabrera came in, and the reporter asked him what he could tell Cabby about hitting. “Not one thing,” Leyland replied.

Raburn and Thomas are role players, and have no excuse for not moving runners over.

HOWEVER, Cabrera averages 1 RBI per 6.833 plate appearances. Thomas is averaging 1 per 7.121 PA, and Raburn is at 6.323 PA. Raburn is getting the job done. I’ve never seen that stat calculated before, and now I can’t think why not — it’s arguably much more important than batting average, as plating runs (not collecting hits) is the whole purpose of hitting.

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