I used to have a LeBaron way back when, and the thing seemed to hit everything in sight.

You realized that I was responding to Mark’s implication that the WSox and Twins were somehow less flawed than the Tigers right? That for all their ability to temporalize their problems, over a span of over three years, the Tigers are as good if not better than his examples, right?

I can assure you that I’m not a glass-half-full kind of guy. I do realize that the Tigers have been a flawed team, and have for quite sometime. OTOH, I just don’t think that every dead-weight contract that has been signed since 2006 was destined to fail. I think that (at the time) most of the moves DD made were done with an eye to win; and not only to win, but to win in the short term.

As far as frustration over the Tigers performance vs payroll, I’ve already said plenty about that in this thread, I won’t repeat myself.

I suppose I’m somewhat of a young’in when it comes to my baseball fanhood, and I won’t claim to have struggled through decades of bad Detroit teams. You probably have me beat there. I do think that these Tigers are doing better than anyone could have hoped for, given the circumstances.

Do please continue to QQ about Inge’s all-star appearance, its oh so amusing with the analogies.

I feel like we have the same arguments here over and over–between the half full and half empty crowd. I think a team with the 7th best record in a 14 team league with the Tigers’ payroll is frustrating.

It gets back to my Inge obsession. Would Inge be a nice #9 hitter and slick fielding 3rd baseman if he was on a two-year $7m contract? Yes. But instead, he’s on a 4 yr 25 m contract with a lifetime batting average a .239 and an 09 batting average of .236 after April 1. And Tiger fans saw fit to launch a write-in candidacy to make him an all-star when he should have been resting his aching knees! Seriously, that’s like voting the Chrysler LeBaron car of the year because its Consumer Reports repair average is slightly less bad on the 2009 model.

The bottom line is I understand why some think a few of us carp too much. But the problem is actually the other way around. A lot of you expect too little.
Which, I would argue has been Detroit’s problem my entire life whether it be the Tigers, its political leadership, or the auto industry actually building a car that could compete with the Toyota Corolla and Honda Accord. If you’re happy with crumbs-i.e. just grateful they no longer completely suck- well, this is the team for you.

re: the bullpen, see http://www.pattiengineering.co.....g-is-over/

re: the want of fantastic closer, see the other 27 teams whose closer you didn’t mention.

re: the lack of offense, see the 2008 Tigers finishing last in AL-CENT while finishing 5th in MLB scoring vs 2009 Tigers leading AL-CENT while 15th in MLB scoring.

re: Toledo, see how 40-man rosters work. also, see moves to come when the rosters expand.

Overall, I get the frustration, I just qualify it for myself with the positives. For example:

“The Tigers winning percentage currently sits at a tidy, .522. Yikes. If they continue that pace, they’ll join this group of teams to make the postseason with such a pedestrian winning percentage:

* 2008 Dodgers (84-78): Lost in the NLCS
* 2006 Cardinals (83-78): Won the World Series
* 2005 Padres (82-80): Swept in the First Round
* 1997 Astros (84-78): Swept in the First Round

So there ya go. The only team as bad as the Tigers to make the playoffs and win the whole thing was a team that beat the Tigers. It’s also worth noting that every one of these teams is from the National League. In 1993, the Texas Rangers were leading the AL West and were ten games under .500 at the time of the strike.”

http://www.spotstarters.com/?p=2462

It’s not just the payroll, it’s a lot of things. The under performing offense, spotty pitching(especially the bullpen), lack of a consistent and solid closer(although Rodney has a lot of saves and a high save to blown ratio, how many have been quality saves vs. someone like Papelbon or Rivera or Nathan?). Yet this team is still in first place. They seem to not care either way, based on the mundane reactions when they take yet another called third strike. And the lack of action from the front office on the offense which seems to be in hibernation, for SO LONG . . . I can see a series or two, but this has dragged on so long.

And I really don’t think it is all about payroll. There are a lot of quality players that are pulling much more than their weight, i.e. Thomas, Avila, Rayburn, and Joyce last year . . . but why not mix things up a little? Bring up Hessman for a series or two, let the Toledo group show what they have instead of the horrible displays Inge, Everett, Laird and Magglio generally put forth. Instead, we see Everett striking out yet again last night after that pathetic performance the other night.

If you’re strictly basing your expectations on the payroll, I can see where the disappointment comes from. You’d also be taking things out of context by just looking at the payroll. If you’re still hung-up on the contract busts that were done in the name of winning, I can’t help you. Reams have been written here on the merits of the various deals that are now hand-cuffing this team. Personally I think that DD and company are still batting above .500 with contracts, overall. What’s done is done, and by most accounts the Tigers management has done the best they can with what they have.

“And the gulf you mention . . . I count a diff of 8 to 14 between those figures and considering Boston is not having a stellar year and they are in the tougher division, what does that say?”

I’m not sure what you mean here, but prior to the series, it wouldn’t have been a stretch (based on pitching matchups) to think that the Tigers would take 3 of 4. This would leave the Tigers with a 62-52 record and the Sox with a 63-51 record. A lot of strange things have happened in this series, and now the Tigers will be lucky to avoid the sweep. Yes Boston is playing in a tougher division, but aren’t they also underachieving based on payroll? The Tigers are a very flawed team, which was evident from the start of the season. They were written off in terms of contending, but they still find themselves with a 3-loss lead in the division.

“So Andri, we aren’t suppose to compare midwest and east coast markets even though we are both in the AL, huh?”

I’ll partially recant re: comparing AL-CENT with AL-EAST. Still, it shouldn’t be done without context. Until just recently there was a clear gulf in spending. While money doesn’t guarantee championships, there’s a reason why the Yankees win more than the Royals, and a lot of that is money related. You take divisional strength into account in Boston’s case, but you won’t acknowledge the money side?

The Tigers payroll is about $120mil, but really when you look at the non-production from Robertson, Bonderman and Willis along with the sub-production of Maggs and Guillen — the Tigers are only getting $60mil worth of production from their payroll. To me, the 2009 Tigers are the definition of overachieving.

And the gulf you mention . . . I count a diff of 8 to 14 between those figures and considering Boston is not having a stellar year and they are in the tougher division, what does that say?

I have no love of the east coast or the AL East teams. I am mid west born and raised. But I know when I see an organization not living up to it’s potential based on it’s available budget.

Scotsw, I hear you, but you are talking specifics about one particular series or game. I am speaking of a systemic issue which has been left to fester during DD’s tenure. From Willis, to Magglio, to trading Pudge for Farnsworth, to the rotting bullpen . . . you can say what you want, but DD doesn’t know what the @#$% he is doing and him coupled w/a formula, rigid old coot like JL spells doom for this team until things change hands.

That’s a lot of frustration you’re venting over a first-place team. Losing three in a row happens to virtually every team. Ugly losses happen to EVERY SINGLE TEAM every single year. It happens. We’re lucky this happened on this night, rather than a night when Verlander was pitching a gem.

I mean, speaking just about game 3, the Tigers were scheduled to send a somewhat struggling #5 starter against a great-hitting lineup and Josh Beckett, one of the game’s very best. He was too sick, so we used an emergency starter. Our best hitter was out with a sore hand. It was a recipe for a loss, and no surprise they lost. And so we move on. Today, our ace is on the mound, and maybe Cabrera’s back, and maybe everything will look better in about 12 hours.

The key to this series was Porcello deciding to lose Game 2. Harsh? Maybe. But I don’t believe he was ordered to throw at Yukilis. I believe he decided to pitch him real, real tight to send a message, and plunking him was a completely predictable outcome. He’s a 20-year-old kid in the heat of a edgy series with the Boston Red Sox, staring his first-ever game in Fenway. Adrenaline, anyone?

Did he “mean” to do it? Yeah, sorta, he did. Control is not one of Porcello’s problems. The Martinez chin music wasn’t an accident, either. He was probably trying to “dust” both of them, actually, but that’s a risky game. So Porcello gets tossed early in the 2nd inning of a game we were leading 3-0. It’s good to let your teammates see that you have their back. It’s really important to know the right time, place and manner to do that. First win, then settle the score. Porcello put his team in a hole. Lesson learned, hopefully.

My point is, if Porcello stays in and the Tigers win game 2, they’re looking at a series split with a win from their ace today. And you’ll take a split on the road with Boston. It’s not all gloom and doom.

DET: 316 – 283
CHW: 309 – 293
MIN: 318 – 282
CLE: 304 – 295

Lets not get into the franchise comparisons with the Yanks and RSox, that’s ignoring the inherent disadvantage mid-west, mid-market teams have vs. those two big-spenders.

Ok, just this one comparison: going into the series with Boston — DET: 59-51; BOS: 62-48. Wow, what a gulf that is separating these franchises.

Sorry you feel down right now, maybe in your next life you’ll be born on the east-coast.

In business, if you don’t perform after a certain period of time, you are terminated and replaced with someone who your superior feels can do the job. In the many many years I have been a fan of this team, I can count the stellar seasons on my left hand fingers.

Take the current Boston series . . . I see a Tigers team which is simply outclassed in every single area . . . hitting(patience, focus, determination), defense, pitching(first pitch strikes, strike to ball ratio, walks). Take the Yankees for example . . . a team which was in horrible shape not to long ago, and within a year or two, have cultivated one of the best teams in baseball. There is absolutely no reason why the Tigers can’t do the same thing given budget they have.

It seems the answer is simple . . . in Boston and NY, the fans simply will not stand for a consistent loser. In Detroit, there seems to be a different attitude. Even though the Tiger’s organization continues to put a sub-par product on the field, fans continue to purchase $45 tickets, consume $8.50 beers and $10 chicken strip dinners and fund the salaries of players that apparently don’t mind losing and owners and GM’s that apparently laugh all the way to the bank.

If you want to fix a problem, you fix it. If you want to skate buy and just be happy you are making a short term profit in a town that is addicted to sports and has more loyalty than anywhere, I suppose you could throw your honor out the window like Mr. Illitch is doing. Otherwise, if you have honor and care about your fans and winning, you would jettison our so called GM/Pres/CEO and whatever the hell else he calls himself, the entire coaching staff and manager(save Knapp possibly), and get someone in here that can produce a winner like the big market teams do.

Until that happens, all of us will continue to read about stats and “oh Beckett/Buerhle/Grenke has great stuff” . . .

I for one will not spend one more dime of my hard earned income supporting Illitch’s inferior product. The difference between the Twins/WSox and the Tigers is for them, their problems are temporary. The Tigers, on the other hand, are far more systemic and permanent I am afraid.