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Game 2009.084: Royals at Tigers

PREGAME: With Zach Greinke taking on Luke French the pitching match-up would certainly seem to tilt in the Royals favor. But you know, nothing is a given – especially with this Tigers team lately.

I apologize for the abbreviated game post tonight, but you can make up for it by voting Inge. He just took the lead and there are less than 24 hours to go. And vote Shane Victorino while you’re at it. If you vote Inge 100 times you get entered into a drawing where you get free tickets and a free dinner and a free trip to the pitchers mound before the game.

Kansas City vs. Detroit – July 8, 2009 | MLB.com: Gameday

POSTGAME: There was a crispness in this game that had been lacking for quite some time. The Tigers got some timely (and well placed) hits off a Cy Young front runner. They got a great start from a rookie pitcher getting his first win. And most impressively they got 2.1 perfect innings from the pen.

The pen has been shaky of late, but tonight they were dominant. Fu-Te Ni induced a double play grounder and picked up a strike out. Brandon Lyon pitched a perfect 8th on 11 pitches and Fernando Rodney with a perfect 9th on 14 pitches. All told the pen record 8 outs on 33 pitches, and 5 of them were strike-outs.

Nice win all around.

Posted by on July 8, 2009.

Categories: Uncategorized

89 Responses

  1. Inge doesn’t deserve it. I’m casting my votes for Kinsler though I considered Figgins as well.

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 5:50 pm

  2. I voted for Inge about 30 times already. Guess I better get busy to get to the magic number of 100. I’m expecting to get a ham sandwich for diner though. LOL.

    by Mr. X on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:08 pm

  3. Man, I want to live in a world where you can have a .239 career batting average, have more career strikeouts than hits AND hit exactly .250 this year since May 1 and make an all-star team!

    It’s like an absentee dad showing up after missing countless birthdays and alimony payments, taking the kinds to Disneyland for two weeks, and then showing up to every other school function and getting voted Father of the Year.

    As poet-philosopher king Don King would say, ‘Only in America.’

    by stephen on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:09 pm

  4. Its more like a great stay-at-home (defense) dad that hadn’t contributed much by working from home (offense), suddenly pulling in the big bucks too.

    Mat and stephen,

    After all this time, do neither of you value defensive contributions to wins? Defense (and its “chicken or the egg” counterpart, pitching) is essentially the difference between this year and last year.

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:22 pm

  5. He’s a good defender. But I don’t base my assessment of MLB’s “stars” on just a few months of data. The HR surge has been nice, but I’m just as impressed with the increase in walks. The K numbers are still ugly.

    Bottom line: He’s still not an all-star. I’d trade him for Figgins, Young, Longoria and ARod in a heartbeat. Maybe Beltre and some others too.

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:33 pm

  6. “AND hit exactly .250 this year since May 1 and make an all-star team!”

    Clearly Ian Kinsler should get the vote…with his May 1 – current batting average of .226…

    Or throw out May and just use June 1 – current, and he’s still above .200!

    If .250 is an absentee dad, I’m afraid to think of what Kinsler is with his .212 since June 1…

    Still, he does beat out the May 1 – current Carlos Pena, with his not-quite-Ted-Williams-like .216…I realize his case is a bit different though because of all the home runs–14 of which were from May 1 on, which is even 2 more than Inge, although Inge did have 5 more RBI…

    by Coleman on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:37 pm

  7. Inge gets my vote because of his defense and his clutch hitting. I put him in the same boat as an Ozzie Smith. Smith was a lifetime .262 hitters with a .666 OPS. He had his best year offensively when he was 32 years old, the same age that Inge is right now. Smith made 15 All-Star teams and went to HOF because of his popularity.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:49 pm

  8. Hmm, if “that boy is so athletic” as Rod says, someone might suggest to Inge doing the occasional backflip…

    by Coleman on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:54 pm

  9. I don’t think the “not voting for a guy based on a few months of stats” camp has considered that Inge has fielding ratings that put him at the top defensively, and has year in year out, ever since he started playing 3rd…

    by Coleman on Jul 8, 2009 at 6:56 pm

  10. well aware of Inge’s defensive skills

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 7:04 pm

  11. I got my votes in. I punched those keys for Inge for a solid 20 minutes. He’s got at least 150 votes from me all together.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 8, 2009 at 7:56 pm

  12. Just wondering… how do you guys get logos next to your name?

    by ouchudied on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:08 pm

  13. Wow I can’t believe he called that a strike. That pitch was not even close.

    EDIT: Talking about Granderson’s called third strike.

    by ouchudied on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:16 pm

  14. Strike zone is weird 2 nite

    by Mcb on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:17 pm

  15. Isn’t SS a more difficult and important defensive position? More responsibility, more area to cover, and more balls? Not to say that 3B is easy, but theres a reason Guillen was moved there first when he could no longer handle SS.

    Inge’s defense has been good for years. He wasn’t getting talked up for all-star bids then. Even when he was playing a tougher and more important position (Catcher). It appears hitting some homeruns does a lot for one’s “popularity”.

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:22 pm

  16. Coleman, you’re making your argument by suggesting the other guys are equally lame. I’m not defending the other guys, it’s completely ridiculous that the already bloated all-star roster needs any of these five. And that it’s chosen by a method where you are encouraged to vote a hundred times! And the fact that an all-star team plays a role in deciding World Series home field advantage! Which literally is the stupidest thing in the history of organized sports. I’m so glad Bud Selig saw fit to disregard the practice of almost every other professional league in the history of the world giving home field advantage to the team with uh, the better record!

    Sorry about that. Serenity now, serenity now!

    ps–and I like Inge’s defense, but the idea that a statistically below average player can have the month of his life and then play the next two months at an admittedly adequate level and thus deserves to make an all-star team just seems to dilute the concept of all-star.

    by stephen on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:25 pm

  17. Detroit sports analogy: I seem to remember Scott Mitchell having a stretch of five almost 300 yard games, but that didn’t get him invited to the Pro Bowl!

    by stephen on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:28 pm

  18. That, sir, is a terrible argument and one that does not transcend from football to baseball.

    by ouchudied on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:36 pm

  19. I heard that the All-Star game was totally about who deserves it and has nothing to do with a huge popularity contest…amirite?

    by Ryan P. on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:38 pm

  20. Weird, I had no idea that your career BA factored into your all-star resume, but your April BA apparently is not factored in. Thanks for enlightening me.

    by Ryan P. on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:39 pm

  21. Terrific work by French today out-dueling an All-Star. Kudos!

    by Vanguy on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:41 pm

  22. Oh you’d be wrong. Brandon Inge is the Scott Mitchell of baseball. Just good enough to make a lot of money and make you salivate about the possibilities. Not good enough to be consistently excellent which, to me, is the definition of an all-star.

    by stephen on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:48 pm

  23. Brandon Inge is essentially the antithesis of Scott Mitchell. Mitchell was made by the players around him. Ever heard of Barry Sanders? Or how about the 1,000 yard receiving duo of Brett Perriman and Herman Moore?

    In football, the sample size is small and passing yards can be completely dependent upon the situation in the game. I’d be willing to wager that the Lions were playing from behind (surprise!) in the games where he threw for 300 yards. Baseball, however, has a gigantic sample size and the batting average is much less dependent on the situation of the game. Regardless of the score, the pitcher is pitching to the batter to strike him out. There is no prevent defense in baseball. But when you do look at the situational batting late in games for Inge, you can see that he has made some timely, clutch hits.

    And to top that off Inge is a gold-glove caliber thirdbaseman on pace for over 100 RBIs and just under 40 HRs. What else do you want from him?

    by ouchudied on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:55 pm

  24. Agreed. Nice Defense too!

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 8, 2009 at 8:57 pm

  25. Well, Carlos Guillen made the All-Star team last year. Inge 2009 is far superior to Guillen 2008.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:01 pm

  26. Talking about MY votes.

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:03 pm

  27. The Tigers already have 3 all-stars this year. Guillen was there to meet the quota.

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:04 pm

  28. Is sarcasm still the lowest form of humor if the statement isn’t funny?

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:05 pm

  29. 19 HR in 83 games, including a career month he is unlikely to replicate. I hope you’re right though. 40/100 from 3B would be a nice surprise

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:07 pm

  30. And here is what appears to be our new set-up man?

    by ouchudied on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:11 pm

  31. Okay?

    by Ryan P. on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:12 pm

  32. 11 pitches. leave Lyon out there

    by Mat on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:25 pm

  33. Well I certainly am not going to defend the selection process, since it’s sort of silly…but I thought that arguing that Inge didn’t belong, in the context of the final vote discussion, meant you felt that the others were more worthy.

    Oddly, if you look at it a certain way, Inge isn’t even really having a career year this season. .257 .339 .434 are his career averages while playing 3rd base; the .205 thing only happens when he catches–along with adjusted-for-162-games HR/RBI averages of 21 HR 83 RBI. If he had 11 HR right now would he be in the running for the All-Star? Extremely doubtful. But he hasn’t had such an awful career, I’d say those numbers are solidly average, or a tad above average.

    by Coleman on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:28 pm

  34. Rodney turned it up a notch. He’s just nasty! Another win in the books. Making it look easy Tonight.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:32 pm

  35. Rough night for Inge…
    Voted for him the whole game (yesterday and today).
    Maybe doesn’t deserve it (okay, really, Kinsler should be on the team- not having to be voted in. The guy is leading off and could drive in 100 runs!), but it would be nice to watch the All-Star Game with 4 Tigers!

    by Skip on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:34 pm

  36. Oh- and Vote Victorino!
    The Flyin’ Hawaiian!!! (no not Pineapple)

    by Skip on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:36 pm

  37. Anytime you can beat a pitcher like Greinke it is a great win. Excellent start by French and pen was solid. Now how about the Yanks and Indians win tonight and extend our lead.

    by Walter55 on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:44 pm

  38. You’re right Mitchell did play with all-stars! Kinda like Inge plays with all-stars! Mitchell benefited from Sanders etc.., Inge benefits from Cabrera etc.. Of course, the sports are different, but both of them were basically busts who could get hot for a period of time and then flame out just as quickly.

    And yes, if Inge put together a whole 40 hr 120 rbi season I will vote for him a thousand times. I’m just saying he had the month of his lifetime and has now batted .248 since, 10 points about his .239 career average. Heck, I’d declare victory with his season if he hits .250 the rest of the way and ends up with 30 hr’s . But I just don’t think he’s an all-star.

    by stephen on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:46 pm

  39. There is a lot of idiocy surrounding the All Star game and many things that go with it.

    At the same time there are no guidelines in terms of voting. I have no problem with people who put more weight on career than a half season, or those who vote for the players who have had the best half season.

    Kinsler does deserve to be on the team more than Inge does. Yet if you’re in the camp that weight’s current season performance heavily, Inge should be backing up Longoria meaning he is also deserving.

    by billfer on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:46 pm

  40. Batting average isn’t particularly useful for measuring the value of a player. I won’t say BA is useless because it does a good job of measuring a players ability to get hits. Looking at his OBP and SLG combined with his defense makes him a pretty valuable player – throughout the course of this season. Plus he gets bonus points for being exceptionally clutch. I’m not arguing that any of it is sustainable, just that he has done very well this year.

    by billfer on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:50 pm

  41. Hmmm. Where’s Chris with dire predictions?

    by billfer on Jul 8, 2009 at 9:50 pm

  42. That’s a bit of a stretch, I’m afraid. (No disrespect to the dead-beat dad, Father-of-the-Year, mind you).

    by T Smith on Jul 8, 2009 at 10:03 pm

  43. Tigers were great from inning one. Nothing negative tonight! Great game.

    by Mcb on Jul 8, 2009 at 10:06 pm

  44. Maybe my name calling chased him away?

    by jb61973 on Jul 8, 2009 at 10:16 pm

  45. Wow. BJ Ryan was released.
    And DON”T TRADE FOR DOC HALLADAY *caps lock off*
    it would be a future killing move- draining our farm… again.
    (get a left handed bat)

    by Skip on Jul 8, 2009 at 10:17 pm

  46. Anyone heard of how negotiations with Jacob Turner are going?

    by Skip on Jul 8, 2009 at 10:29 pm

  47. To be perfectly unbiased, stephen is right. Brandon Inge has played exceptionally well the first half — but the real question is whether or not he should be an All Star player — yes, he’s been less than stellar since May 1, which does lend some credence to the Scott Mitchell analogy, but he has also been clutch since May 1 (and as Billfer has pointed out, he has a very strong OPS which his supporters can draw from their holsters with rabid glee. He has also carried the team on his back a few times since his torrid start, even while his preformance has regressed to the mean (which is a hell of lot more than he did last year…. ever). This suggests to me that the Tigers should consider Brandon Inge a candidate for the team MVP for the first half. But that fact alone doesn’t necessarily bestow All Star caliber upon Inge by default.

    I like Inge this year and have a hunch he’ll cool down in the second half — moreso to the Inge we’ve all known so well the past couple years, although I certainly hope I’m wrong about this. But regardless of where Inge goes from here, what’s really going here is a cinderalla story. Whether he deserves to be there or not is kinda secondary, I think. Everybody loves a cinderella story, which is what is driving all this Inge voting madness — and all the passionate and borderline vehement response from a post that merely stated the facts.

    He’s gonna make it, mark my words.

    by T Smith on Jul 8, 2009 at 10:36 pm

  48. Hmm, could Figgins be reading this blog?

    “ANAHEIM, Calif. – Stumping for his first All-Star appearance, this by way of MLB’s final vote gimmick, Angels third baseman Chone Figgins(notes) said Monday that if elected he would pay tumbling tribute to one of the great players in St. Louis Cardinals history.

    Figgins’ campaign promise (delivered with a grin): He’ll arrive at his position in the manner of his favorite player growing up, with a backflip, just like former Cardinals shortstop Ozzie Smith.”

    by Coleman on Jul 8, 2009 at 10:51 pm

  49. You’d rather have Longoria or ARod? Wow, going out on a limb!

    The irony of you choosing Beltre over Inge this year is that he’s only outperforming Inge (slightly) defensively, while Inge has produced much more at the plate. Of the Beltre, Figgins and Young comparisons, Inge has them all beat on WAR this year @ 3.3 (Figgins comes closest @ 2.6).

    We’re not voting for the Hall of Fame here, we’re voting on the 2009 All Stars, what’s wrong with using the current year as a bench mark for something that’s a yearly selection? These aren’t aggregate selections, we’re not voting on the 2006-2009 All Star team, its the 2009 All Star team, and so far Inge has out performed many of the counter-examples you’ve put up this year. Do you see a theme in my argument?

    If I ask you to name the best rock band of 2009, are you going to say U2? I mean, they have had one hell of a career, no doubt.

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 9, 2009 at 12:20 am

  50. I endorse T Smith’s position. Also, Bilfer you’re right about batting average so lets go to OPS. Inge’s is approximately .770 since May 1, good not great.

    by stephen on Jul 9, 2009 at 1:11 am

  51. To the guy last night who complained about Rodney: The guy has worked 15 1-2-3 innings this year (tonight was his 15th) out of 38. That is a percentage of 39.5% of his innings are 1-2-3 innings. I’m not saying Rodney is the second coming of Rivera, but IMO he’s a hell of a lot better than Rollercoaster Jones. If Jones had anything above a 25% rate of 1-2-3 innings the last few years I’d be surprised. Tonight was about as good as a closer can do it. He got a lazy flyball to CF followed by two strikeouts, not much to complain about in that outing. Last night he was a little shaky but the Royals never even got the go-ahead run to the plate. Sure they had the tying run up with one out, but Rodney came back strong and got out of it. Rodney is not really a huge issue for the Tigers. A left-handed bat with power and a reliable set-up guy (yeah I’m talking about you Joel) are bigger issues IMO.

    by Jerry the Tiger Fan on Jul 9, 2009 at 1:29 am

  52. scratch this post, its a repeat. sorry!

    by Jerry the Tiger Fan on Jul 9, 2009 at 1:34 am

  53. One more comment re: tonight’s game. This win makes up for Monday night’s loss to KC. I expected us to take the first two (although I was pensive about Monday’s matchup of Battlestar vs. Meche) and drop the finale meekly to the all-powerful Zach Grienke. I am very pleased that the Tigers played a clean game from start to finish and cashed in on some early opportunities against a very tough starter. Polanco’s baserunning in the first inning (taking second on DeJesus’ throw) was the key to the two-run first inning. If Polanco doesn’t take second base we don’t score any runs, let alone two. Remember, Cabrera flew out to short RF and then Thames grounded out to SS to drive in the first run. If Polanco had stayed at first, Thames’ groundball would’ve been an inning-ending double play ball. Instead, it was a “productive out” and drove in a run. Clete Thomas followed with an RBI single to right-center that made it 2-0, but again that would’ve never happened if it were not for Polanco’s heads up baserunning. Instead of a 3-1 win, we might’ve been going to extra innings tied at 1 tonight as Greinke certainly got tougher as the game wore on. In retrospect, those were two HUGE runs in the first inning tonight.

    by Jerry the Tiger Fan on Jul 9, 2009 at 1:42 am

  54. This stuff is complicated, but I think I’m catching on. So the way to judge players is on career stats, and/or current year’s stats minus the 1st month, but NEVER on this year’s year-to-date stats..

    Lluckily for Inge, his merely good partial OPS is only about 20 points shy of Longoria’s, and he could well surpass him by the all-star game, if July turns out to be a month you can count.

    by Coleman on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:23 am

  55. But I still don’t get why April doesn’t count.

    I also am on board with T Smith’s take.

    by billfer on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:21 am

  56. Let me just say – I like Inge. And I think my opinion is well known as being one of the strongest “Inge Lovers” out there.

    If he doesn’t make it this year, or win a gold glove when does he?

    I hope he makes it and I hope all of you are voting your, excuse my French ;) , @$$3$ off for him. If you watch the Tigers nightly you know what he has meant to this team. We aren’t voting on careers. If we were we’d have a vastly different all-star roster.

    I’m sorry but anyone who has access to this site and therefore a computer and hasn’t at least voted for Inge one time, isn’t a Tiger fan IMO and should be ashamed of themselves, I sure am.

    Cheers.

    by David on Jul 9, 2009 at 8:33 am

  57. Oh and Stephen stop being so negative.

    Coleman – the one yanking out all the stats isn’t making stuff up.

    And Mat – what? does April not count? What was that extended spring training?

    by David on Jul 9, 2009 at 8:35 am

  58. Bran-Torino are leading going into the final 6 hours :)

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb

    by Ryan P. on Jul 9, 2009 at 10:39 am

  59. I’m not attempting to go out on a limb, I’m attempting to use common sense.

    There’s nothing WRONG with using this years stats, per se, because the criteria is undefined. It just seem silly to evaluate players or draw conclusions based on small sample sizes. I perceive the all-star game as literal to its title. I want to see the game’s stars. Not the people who had a good half season.

    It makes no sense to reward the first half of a season and not the second. As you said, its a YEARLY selection, not one made every 4 months.

    Music is a good analogy. U2 may not be band of the year, but I’d rather see them play live in 2009 than Coldplay, who may have sold more records over the past year. And CERTAINLY over Rob Thomas or the Jonas Brothers, who has much better “stats” over the last few months.

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:30 pm

  60. I’ll try to get another 100 votes in before the deadline. Inge is an All-Star in my book because nobody represents the Tigers better than him. I never really was an Inge fan until last year when he was the last man standing after the 3B fiasco. Cabrera and Guillen made 3B look like a Mission Impossible. Moving Cabrera to 1B and putting Inge back at 3B is the best thing to come out of the 2008 season.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:38 pm

  61. April counts, but so do July, August and September

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:45 pm

  62. when does he?

    how about never. He’s not one of the two best players at the position. He’s not even one of the 5 best, though depending on how much value you put on defense, an argument could be made there.

    The criteria I use for “best” is, ignoring contracts and expectations, would you trade this guy for another guy for one season. I think theres several people above Inge for whom the answer is an easy and emphatic yes.

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 2:48 pm

  63. I think for an all star you vote (or at least I do) on one thing – first half performance.

    This is the 2009 game – it should feature the best players of THIS YEAR. It isn’t a decades team.

    Now you tell me where Inge stands here?

    http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....38;month=0

    He is 6th overall in value(very comprehensive and fantastic stat) in our league and 2nd behind only Longoria at third. Plus as has been beaten to death – he has been more than clutch – uber clutch.

    Like Mr. X said – there is no better representative and hasn’t been in awhile.

    You would trade Inge for Figgins? LOL
    Kinsler? possibly due to the difference in age, and expectations of future value (one guy hitting his prime the other quite possibly at the end of his).

    Lind? again the same deal as Kinsler

    But we are voting on 2009 value and Inge has beaten out everybody on that list. Whether you like the guy or not he has – been one of the MOST VALUABLE POSITION PLAYERS. He should have been a lock for the game, and should make the team if he can in any event.

    Vote how you like though.

    by David on Jul 9, 2009 at 3:21 pm

  64. Lets use some common sense to start off with. Odds are that previous bias towards Inge, good or bad, plays heavily into opinions of his “all-starness”. Also, as you point out, the criteria for “all-star” is undefined. Maybe we can both agree on those two points. In addition, personally, I don’t think that previous selection should factor into it. Inge making, or not making, the All-Star team ahead of some of the players you originally mentioned probably won’t even be this year’s biggest snub (although I won’t take the time to figure out who is).

    So now we’re, apparently, arguing over sample size. I find this a little odd. For example, Longoria hasn’t been in the league two years yet — but no fuss over that b/c he’s been great for his 1.5 years in the majors. Now, if he got hurt, or fat, or lost all his range or power and fell of the base-ball face of the earth hardly anyone would remember him 20 years from now (not saying they’ll remember Inge either). So what’s the point in arguing over half a year when it comes to a mid-year award show? Looking at Longoria again for comparison, he’s been trending downwards while Inge has kept up his pace for the most part.

    You say you want to see the game’s stars, and I agree. Of course our individual notions of what defines “star” are as subjective as the selection criteria (Coleman, feel free to officially define “star” for us :P). I believe that throughout his career at 3B, Inge has been a defensive star — but “unworthy” of All-star selection until this half-season, as you like to point out, where his offense has gotten some attention. Since this is the first time I think he could legitimately be considered an all-star the main-stream baseball world would consider, I’m really happy to support that.

    For the sake of your one-year argument, I took a look at the stats for the original players mentioned. I looked at 2009: batting average, UZR/150 and WAR. I also looked at some basic production numbers from this year, going back to last years All-Star break. I’ve included ARod for comparison, even though I don’t think he was on the Final-Vote sheet.

    Inge
    09
    .264 AVG / 15 UZR-150 / 3.2 WAR
    08/09
    70 Runs / 24 HR / 82 RBI

    Beltre
    09
    .259 / 17.4 / 1.3
    08/09
    64 / 14 / 62

    Figgins
    09
    .310 / 3.5 / 2.7
    08/09
    104 / 12 /53

    ARod
    09
    .246 / -9.6 / 1.8
    08/09
    80 / 30 / 95

    Looking at the numbers going back a year, I think its pretty valid to vote for Inge. He’s put up respectable offense coupled with great defense. Like I said before, we’re not looking at career totals or stretches of years, we’re voting for 2009′s All-Stars. So far I don’t have a problem saying that Inge is one of those.

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 9, 2009 at 3:58 pm

  65. “He’s not one of the two best players at the position. He’s not even one of the 5 best, though depending on how much value you put on defense, an argument could be made there.”

    Sorry to seem like splitting hairs here, but you seem to be looking at his aggregate value at 3B: defense (position) + offense (bat). When I talk about playing a position, the only value that comes to mind is defense. If you’re talking about actually playing the 3B position, he’s a top-4 for these last three years. ( http://www.fangraphs.com/leade.....8;month=12 ). I don’t think any of the players you’ve previously mentioned are above him in that regard.

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 9, 2009 at 4:16 pm

  66. “we’re not looking at career totals or stretches of years, we’re voting for 2009’s All-Stars.”

    As you say, its a subjective judgement. I think we are looking at career totals and stretches of years. The 2009 all-stars are not the biggest stars for the last 4 months, last 4 months+projections for the next 4, or last 12. The 2009 all-stars are the biggest stars at this point in time (2009). David Ortiz for example is a bigger star than Brandon Inge, by my definition. Even if he isn’t a better player anymore, he is more entertaining.

    I appreciate the stats, and again, I’m aware that Brandon is having a good season. A comparison of power production obviously doens’t capture the impacts of Figgin’s speed. And yes Longoria has a shorter track record, but in this case thats to his benefit compared to Inge’s .220 BA seasons and his whining to the media about his role.

    There was a time Chris Shelton looked like an all-star…

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:04 pm

  67. Yes, I’m talking about defense and offense combined. Inge is not a DF (designated fielder).

    “This is the 2009 game – it should feature the best players of THIS YEAR”

    I agree. And the best players at this point in time are not necessarily the ones that have the best stats over the last 4 months.

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:08 pm

  68. “I agree. And the best players at this point in time are not necessarily the ones that have the best stats over the last 4 months.”

    You’re right, I keep forgetting the importance of facial hair. Inge is way below league average in that department. You win!

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:13 pm

  69. @Mat

    You make no sense…AT ALL…WHATSOEVER. Arguing with you is a futile cause.

    Did your even read your last sentence?

    All stats aside all you need to do is watch the game. But apparently you can’t figure it out that way either. Oh well.

    by David on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:20 pm

  70. Yea but buddy, those are in the future… Do you know what the future is?

    If you don’t you can’t vote on it.

    The ASG is meant to reward fantastic first half players of the year it is in. Is that too hard a concept to understand? What can’t you grasp? I’ll try to help.

    by David on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:22 pm

  71. Oh well, at least we can stop arguing now, it’s over. And the results are in.

    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....8;c_id=mlb

    by Ryan P. on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:23 pm

  72. “There was a time Chris Shelton looked like an all-star…”

    Yes, and that was April of 2006, it was clear by the end of May that he was not. Bad example. Next?

    “The 2009 all-stars are not the biggest stars for the last 4 months, last 4 months+projections for the next 4, or last 12. The 2009 all-stars are the biggest stars at this point in time (2009).”

    Going by your definition, not that there’s anything wrong with that, Inge is not an all-star. However, its just your definition.

    “David Ortiz for example is a bigger star than Brandon Inge, by my definition. Even if he isn’t a better player anymore, he is more entertaining.”

    That’s cool too, but I’ve seen lots of Ortiz and his steroid-inflated brethren at all-star games, and it would be nice to see the defensive aspect of the game represented.

    Vote for who you want, but saying Inge “doesn’t deserve it” is just, like your opinion man. An opinion that, at least this year, isn’t quite that easy to convince others of.

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:24 pm

  73. Inge baby Inge!!

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 9, 2009 at 5:52 pm

  74. Both the White Sox and Twins lost Today. The White Sox helped us even more by depleting Cleveland’s bullpen. The Indians will come limping into Detroit Tomorrow.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:12 pm

  75. It wasn’t “clear” by the end of May because one could have made a similar argument based on his combined April and May stats that he was worthy. As the sample size increased it became increasingly clear that his offensive burst was a fluke. Inge is obviously a better candidate because of defense, but the point stands regarding an outlier of offensive performance (which you admit is the basis of the rationale to pimp Inge for all-star status now and not before).

    Shelton’s numbers indicate the folly of selecting a sports “stars” based on short period of time.

    Yes, its just my opinion. As for convincing others of who is more or less deserving…if it was easy it wouldn’t be much fun. But I view looking at a small sample size and drawing conclusions from it as pretty obviously questionable. As you said…just an opinion. But taking a small sample size and acting on dubious conclusions has a long history.

    If I look at all-star roster from the 1950s I’m interested in seeing a lineup with the stars of the era, not who had a good first half in 1954.

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:21 pm

  76. Which part confuses you?

    Last night I watched French outpitch Greinke. If thats all I need to do to decide my all-stars I know who I’d pick.

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:28 pm

  77. I can just hear the argument now. Inge is good because he’s an ALL-STAR!

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:30 pm

  78. “It wasn’t “clear” by the end of May because one could have made a similar argument based on his combined April and May stats that he was worthy.”

    Of course you could make a similar argument, especially if you were not paying any attention.

    (season totals, not monthly)
    Shelton ’06
    End of April: 10 HR and 20 RBI
    End of May: 11 HR and 28 RBI

    Inge ’09
    End of April: 7 HR / 18 RBI
    End of May: 12 HR / 33 RBI

    I mean, who doesn’t look at that and say, “yeah looks very similar, especially how they trend”.
    Huh?
    No, no, you’re right. The Inge / Shelton comparison is valid. They’re essentially clones, both offensively and defensively. Sorry for arguing.

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:42 pm

  79. Only slightly less valid than some of your arguments on the subject.

    by Andre in Chi on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:44 pm

  80. Inge wants to be in the HR Derby!! That is awesome.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 9, 2009 at 6:57 pm

  81. link?

    by Ryan P. on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:02 pm

  82. The All-Star game is about the fans and their favorite players. Some people get confused and only vote for the best players though.

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:05 pm

  83. At the bottom of the article-
    http://mlb.mlb.com/news/articl.....Id=rss_det

    by Keith (Mr. X) on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:13 pm

  84. Man, this page is like a sarcasm magnet.

    The May numbers are very similar. You’re proving my point.

    As for trends, again, I’d point to a bigger sample of data if my intent was to project performance.

    Finally, in regard to convincing others, my way (stars) is the way most fans pick. So, I wouldn’t say its my role to be the convincing body here.

    Inge may be an exception…or Inge may indeed be becoming a star, as often happens with hitters who have a lot of homeruns. Though he’ll have to maintain it over a full season. If he is hitting 30-40 homeruns a season and playing this kind of D over multiple seasons he may indeed become a legitimate star.

    That would be nice.

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:40 pm

  85. The all star game seems to be about two things: giving the fans what they want and recognizing good performance. When we discuss who “deserves” to go, we usually refer to the “best” players which is generally a mix of the two. Thats not necessarily confusion.

    by Mat on Jul 9, 2009 at 7:43 pm

  86. I have mixed feelings about that…

    Isn’t there a trend of home-run derby participants going into a slump after?

    And psst, Brandon, don’t forget how you do BETTER when you’re NOT trying to hit home runs…

    by Coleman on Jul 9, 2009 at 9:40 pm

  87. The ASG is meant to reward fantastic first half players of the year it is in. Is that too hard a concept to understand?

    Being that there is no criteria for the ASG, I don’t know how anyone can argue it so vehemently. I have no problem with someone who chooses to vote based on a broader body of work than 4 months. I weight the current year more heavily and I happen to vote along your lines of thinking, but there is nothing wrong with a belief that the best players should be in the game.

    Inge isn’t better than A-Rod and there is no debating it. Inge has done better than A-Rod this year in terms of total value (due in part to playing time). It doesn’t mean that either isn’t deserving, it’s all about the criteria an individual uses.

    As an aside, one of the more interesting criteria that I’ve seen some people use is the last calendar year, so there performance post break last year through pre break this year. A bigger sample but one that also rewards a strong first half.

    by billfer on Jul 9, 2009 at 10:07 pm

  88. Andre in Chicago posted the calendar year stats earlier, and Inge stacks up fairly well that way also:

    08/09: 70 Runs / 24 HR / 82 RBI

    A 24/82 3B who is among the top 3 fielders at his position may not be hall of fame bound or make anyone say A-rod who? but certainly isn’t an unreasonable all-star sub selection.

    (He spent more of the 2nd half of ’08 at 3rd than catcher, where the baddest of his bad offensive stats come. If you isolate his offensive stats to when he is playing 3rd he comes out better).

    by Coleman on Jul 9, 2009 at 11:28 pm

  89. I duno I guess it just seems obvious to me.

    This is Aaron Hill’s year, this is Inge’s year, this is Edwin Jackson’s year, this is Zack Grienke’s and Ibanez’s year. This is not David Ortiz or Magglio or Dontrelle’s year or Manny’s year.

    To me that just makes sense.

    You don’t want to give out the MVP every year to Arod do you? Although I like the guy and think he is excellent, I think the 2009 MVP ideally should go to the best performing player overall in 2009. Same with Gold Gloves or Silver Sluggers. If Pudge has lost a step in the field do you want him winning the Gold Glove every year until retirement just because he was one of the best defensive catchers all time?

    I guess you could say you want to see the game’s star players, but I think the best performances of ’09 should be rewarded.

    It doesn’t make much sense to me to reward has-beens, or so-sos, or once-was…

    This type of stuff (excluding the HOF) is what have you done for me lately IMO.

    I kinda understand going back to last ASG stats, but Inge isn’t terrible in that respect. I guess this all boils down to what you think is right. I’m guessing that the majority of people either

    A) Agree with me and go on recent performance (Opening day of said year to whenever they vote)
    B) Vote for stars – guys who have done well over the last 3ish + years
    C) Vote for all the hometown players
    D) Combo of all three

    Whatever you want to do is fine. I mean I voted for Ichiro. I like him a lot, think he has done well this year and would love to see him in the Hr derby.

    In any event it’s all over.

    by David on Jul 9, 2009 at 11:50 pm

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