Comments on: Game 2009.069: Brewers at Tigers http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Keith (Mr. X) http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121841 Keith (Mr. X) Mon, 22 Jun 2009 21:37:55 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121841 Hmm. The Tigers have the 2nd best record in the American League. We're also ranked 5th in ESPN's power rankings- http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/powerranking Hmm. The Tigers have the 2nd best record in the American League.

We’re also ranked 5th in ESPN’s power rankings-
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/powerranking

]]> By: Andre in Chi http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121837 Andre in Chi Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:37:57 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121837 Ryan, Definitely seems high value given his ERA, the only thing I can think of is that they base WAR on FIP. If I weren't so lazy, I'd look up the WAR equation. Ryan,

Definitely seems high value given his ERA, the only thing I can think of is that they base WAR on FIP. If I weren’t so lazy, I’d look up the WAR equation.

]]> By: Ryan P. http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121835 Ryan P. Mon, 22 Jun 2009 18:14:27 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121835 He definitely out-earned his contract in 2005-2006. But apparently his value was $5.6mil last year? For a starter with a 6.35 ERA? Seems, uh, high. He definitely out-earned his contract in 2005-2006.

But apparently his value was $5.6mil last year? For a starter with a 6.35 ERA? Seems, uh, high.

]]> By: Andre in Chi http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121828 Andre in Chi Mon, 22 Jun 2009 15:36:17 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121828 I wasn't going to comment on this, until I found that FanGraphs has a "value" section for players. I know Nate's been pretty bad for the last couple years, and that his contract looks terrible at the moment (especially in light of other heavy contracts to non-contributors). But there were definitely some years where he was adding value well beyond his contract (assuming I'm reading FanGraphs correctly). Robertson Year WAR Dollars Salary 2004 2.5 $7.7 $0.3 2005 1.9 $6.4 $0.4 2006 2.6 $9.7 $0.4 2007 2.3 $9.5 $3.3 2008 1.2 $5.6 $4.3 http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=1620&position=P I wasn’t going to comment on this, until I found that FanGraphs has a “value” section for players. I know Nate’s been pretty bad for the last couple years, and that his contract looks terrible at the moment (especially in light of other heavy contracts to non-contributors). But there were definitely some years where he was adding value well beyond his contract (assuming I’m reading FanGraphs correctly).

Robertson

Year WAR Dollars Salary

2004 2.5 $7.7 $0.3
2005 1.9 $6.4 $0.4
2006 2.6 $9.7 $0.4
2007 2.3 $9.5 $3.3
2008 1.2 $5.6 $4.3

http://www.fangraphs.com/stats.....position=P

]]> By: scotsw http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121825 scotsw Mon, 22 Jun 2009 13:12:23 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121825 Nice legwork... That might be a small and very cherry-picked sample. And yet, it is definitely the story of our little winning streak. I'm declaring Polanco to be out of the doghouse. After a slow spring, he seems to be finding his groove again. Having him on base is a huge factor. It was nice to see him rake a couple long balls, too :-) Granderson seems to be centering the ball again, too. We don't win when he's hitting .250. We need him on base and moving guys around. Good to see him making contact again. Nice legwork… That might be a small and very cherry-picked sample. And yet, it is definitely the story of our little winning streak.

I’m declaring Polanco to be out of the doghouse. After a slow spring, he seems to be finding his groove again. Having him on base is a huge factor. It was nice to see him rake a couple long balls, too :-)

Granderson seems to be centering the ball again, too. We don’t win when he’s hitting .250. We need him on base and moving guys around. Good to see him making contact again.

]]> By: David http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121822 David Mon, 22 Jun 2009 07:55:05 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121822 I don't think it is a matter of opinion. The GM not the owner makes that decision. And if their best pitcher is Nate Robertson they're in trouble. In '04 and '05 our team was still in that long funk of losing seasons, saying he is the best is like saying he was the least fowl smelling $h** in the outhouse. He had a career year in 2006, he was rewarded for that. Why, I do not know. Dombrowski has done it a lot with players. He'd be a terrible stock picker. He buys high, and in baseball you usually can't sell low, and pick up a guy's contract. The only way it was a bargain(relatively speaking) at the time is if Nate the not so great could have repeated his 2006 performance in subsequent years. He has tanked badly and you've got to wonder how much rope he has left. Also you bring up Bonderman... who said that was a good contract? Def. not I. I've never been a huge Bondo fan. He haDDD dominate stuff when he was able to control his pitches. However, I doubt he can ever be a long term ace. We are still waiting for him to post 200IP and an ERA below 4.00. He is just stupid, or has been ever since he arrived in Detroit. I hope he has learned his lesson already, and will stay away ...far away from our team until he is over prepped and uber-healthy. I don’t think it is a matter of opinion. The GM not the owner makes that decision. And if their best pitcher is Nate Robertson they’re in trouble.

In ’04 and ’05 our team was still in that long funk of losing seasons, saying he is the best is like saying he was the least fowl smelling $h** in the outhouse.

He had a career year in 2006, he was rewarded for that. Why, I do not know. Dombrowski has done it a lot with players. He’d be a terrible stock picker. He buys high, and in baseball you usually can’t sell low, and pick up a guy’s contract.

The only way it was a bargain(relatively speaking) at the time is if Nate the not so great could have repeated his 2006 performance in subsequent years.

He has tanked badly and you’ve got to wonder how much rope he has left.

Also you bring up Bonderman… who said that was a good contract? Def. not I. I’ve never been a huge Bondo fan.

He haDDD dominate stuff when he was able to control his pitches. However, I doubt he can ever be a long term ace.

We are still waiting for him to post 200IP and an ERA below 4.00.

He is just stupid, or has been ever since he arrived in Detroit. I hope he has learned his lesson already, and will stay away …far away from our team until he is over prepped and uber-healthy.

]]> By: Ken http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121818 Ken Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:44:35 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121818 Maggs benching, along with shuffling the 3-4 spots with Cabrera and Thames certainly produced some (at least short-term) results. Here are some stats for the four games in which the top of the lineup was Granderson, Polanco, Cabrera and Thames. (Polanco did not play today, so that game is not included.) Granderson was 7-for-18 with 5 R, 4 RBI and 3 HR. Polanco was 5-for-16 with 5 R, 2 RBI and 2 HR. Cabrera was 7-for-17 with 7 R, 4 RBI and 2 HR. Thames was 6-for-16 with 4 R, 7 RBI and 3 HR. Granted, this is a small sample, but those totals are 25-for-67 (.373) with 21 R, 17 RBI and 10 HR. Cabrera also had two doubles. Maggs benching, along with shuffling the 3-4 spots with Cabrera and Thames certainly produced some (at least short-term) results. Here are some stats for the four games in which the top of the lineup was Granderson, Polanco, Cabrera and Thames. (Polanco did not play today, so that game is not included.)

Granderson was 7-for-18 with 5 R, 4 RBI and 3 HR.
Polanco was 5-for-16 with 5 R, 2 RBI and 2 HR.
Cabrera was 7-for-17 with 7 R, 4 RBI and 2 HR.
Thames was 6-for-16 with 4 R, 7 RBI and 3 HR.

Granted, this is a small sample, but those totals are 25-for-67 (.373) with 21 R, 17 RBI and 10 HR. Cabrera also had two doubles.

]]> By: KS http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121816 KS Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:24:52 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121816 Keith, Obviously it's all a matter of opinion, but you've dropped some pretty big things from your argument. You're comparing Bonderman's age 21, 22, 23, and 24 years with Robertson's age 26, 27, 28, and 29 years. Robertson should have been in the early stages of his prime pitching years, Bonderman not even there yet as of 2007. The Tigers were of course paying for Bonderman's upside. It also ignores the periphery numbers, and Bonderman's ability to miss bats. Unfortunately both deals are looking shaky to say the least at this point, I just feel the Bonderman/Robertson comparison doesn't work. Keith,
Obviously it’s all a matter of opinion, but you’ve dropped some pretty big things from your argument. You’re comparing Bonderman’s age 21, 22, 23, and 24 years with Robertson’s age 26, 27, 28, and 29 years. Robertson should have been in the early stages of his prime pitching years, Bonderman not even there yet as of 2007. The Tigers were of course paying for Bonderman’s upside. It also ignores the periphery numbers, and Bonderman’s ability to miss bats. Unfortunately both deals are looking shaky to say the least at this point, I just feel the Bonderman/Robertson comparison doesn’t work.

]]> By: Keith (Mr. X) http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121815 Keith (Mr. X) Mon, 22 Jun 2009 01:09:27 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121815 The 5/5 Club. 5+ ERA @ 5+ Million Name ERA Salary Brandon Webb 13.50 $6.5 Jeremy Bonderman 13.50 $12.5 Chien-Ming Wang 12.30 $5.0 Oliver Perez 9.97 $12.0 Carlos Silva 8.48 $12.3 Daisuke Matsuzaka 8.23 $8.3 Nate Robertson  7.71 $7.0 Scott Kazmir 7.69 $6.0 Dontrelle Willis 7.49 $10.0 Brad Lidge 7.27 $12.0 Scot Shields 6.62 $5.0 Jamie Moyer 6.35 $6.5 John Lackey 5.85 $10.0 B.J. Ryan 5.50 $12.0 Kerry Wood 5.47 $10.0 Joe Blanton 5.28 $5.5 Rich Harden 5.27 $7.0 Jose Contreras 5.25 $10.0 J.J. Putz 5.22 $6.0 Bronson Arroyo 5.16 $10.1 Randy Johnson 5.00 $8.0 The 5/5 Club. 5+ ERA @ 5+ Million

Name ERA Salary
Brandon Webb 13.50 $6.5
Jeremy Bonderman 13.50 $12.5
Chien-Ming Wang 12.30 $5.0
Oliver Perez 9.97 $12.0
Carlos Silva 8.48 $12.3
Daisuke Matsuzaka 8.23 $8.3
Nate Robertson  7.71 $7.0
Scott Kazmir 7.69 $6.0
Dontrelle Willis 7.49 $10.0
Brad Lidge 7.27 $12.0
Scot Shields 6.62 $5.0
Jamie Moyer 6.35 $6.5
John Lackey 5.85 $10.0
B.J. Ryan 5.50 $12.0
Kerry Wood 5.47 $10.0
Joe Blanton 5.28 $5.5
Rich Harden 5.27 $7.0
Jose Contreras 5.25 $10.0
J.J. Putz 5.22 $6.0
Bronson Arroyo 5.16 $10.1
Randy Johnson 5.00 $8.0

]]> By: Coleman http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121814 Coleman Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:34:08 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121814 Perhaps he saw enough pitches in this AB to give him something to work with the following AB--which turned out fairly well I believe. Just something to think about for the 1st/2nd pitch wonders... Perhaps he saw enough pitches in this AB to give him something to work with the following AB–which turned out fairly well I believe. Just something to think about for the 1st/2nd pitch wonders…

]]> By: Keith (Mr. X) http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121813 Keith (Mr. X) Sun, 21 Jun 2009 23:27:52 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121813 I guess it's a matter of opinion if he deserved the contract. Good baseball owners usually reward their best players and Nate was one of our best pitchers. In 2004, the Tiger's team ERA was 4.93, Nate's ERA was 4.90 while throwing 196.2 innings. Bonderman's ERA was 4.89. In 2005, the Tiger's team ERA was 4.51, Nate's ERA was 4.48 while throwing 196.2 innings. He had the best ERA of all our starting pitchers. Bonderman's ERA was 4.57. In 2006, the Tiger's team ERA was 3.84, Nate's ERA was 3.84 while throwing 208.2 innings. Bonderman's ERA was 4.08. In 2007, the Tiger's team ERA was 4.57, Nate's ERA was 4.76 while throwing 177.2 innings. Bonderman's ERA was 5.01. At this time Robertson was a main staple to our pitching staff. After the 2006 season, the Tigers gave Bonderman a 4 year / $38 million contract. Nate didn't get his deal until after the 2007 season, which was for 3 years / $21.25 million. That was a nice bargain at the time and he totally deserved it. I guess it’s a matter of opinion if he deserved the contract. Good baseball owners usually reward their best players and Nate was one of our best pitchers.

In 2004, the Tiger’s team ERA was 4.93, Nate’s ERA was 4.90 while throwing 196.2 innings. Bonderman’s ERA was 4.89.

In 2005, the Tiger’s team ERA was 4.51, Nate’s ERA was 4.48 while throwing 196.2 innings. He had the best ERA of all our starting pitchers. Bonderman’s ERA was 4.57.

In 2006, the Tiger’s team ERA was 3.84, Nate’s ERA was 3.84 while throwing 208.2 innings. Bonderman’s ERA was 4.08.

In 2007, the Tiger’s team ERA was 4.57, Nate’s ERA was 4.76 while throwing 177.2 innings. Bonderman’s ERA was 5.01.

At this time Robertson was a main staple to our pitching staff.

After the 2006 season, the Tigers gave Bonderman a 4 year / $38 million contract. Nate didn’t get his deal until after the 2007 season, which was for 3 years / $21.25 million. That was a nice bargain at the time and he totally deserved it.

]]> By: jud http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121809 jud Sun, 21 Jun 2009 22:31:47 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121809 Robertson doesn't get optioned because he can refuse, which I am reasonable sure he would do....Sometimes you just gotta cut your losses...Its only pizza money. I'll by more hot and ready if it will help! Robertson doesn’t get optioned because he can refuse, which I am reasonable sure he would do….Sometimes you just gotta cut your losses…Its only pizza money. I’ll by more hot and ready if it will help!

]]> By: David http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121805 David Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:55:42 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121805 Nate has gotten batted around like a Pinata the last several years. In his career he has only had one above average year as far as ERA+ goes. He never deserved that contract - it was off of one good year - 2006. Since 2006 his total ERA is 5.66.... He deserves no leash and should be either A) Cut or B) used extremely sparingly in certain situations that warrant it Even with Inge you had several years of at least being mediocre - where his OPS+ was at 100 or above. 109 in 2004, 100 in 2005 and 98 in 2006(when he went homer happy) add on to that the ridiculous defense that he played in the outfield and also the infield and also his depth at catcher and he was a good shot to provide the team quite a bit of value, especially with our team. I'm pissed I missed his 3 run jack - a manager's best friend. I only watched the first several innings of the Verlander/Gallardo duel. Nate has gotten batted around like a Pinata the last several years. In his career he has only had one above average year as far as ERA+ goes. He never deserved that contract – it was off of one good year – 2006.

Since 2006 his total ERA is 5.66…. He deserves no leash and should be either

A) Cut
or
B) used extremely sparingly in certain situations that warrant it

Even with Inge you had several years of at least being mediocre – where his OPS+ was at 100 or above. 109 in 2004, 100 in 2005 and 98 in 2006(when he went homer happy) add on to that the ridiculous defense that he played in the outfield and also the infield and also his depth at catcher and he was a good shot to provide the team quite a bit of value, especially with our team.

I’m pissed I missed his 3 run jack – a manager’s best friend.

I only watched the first several innings of the Verlander/Gallardo duel.

]]> By: Steve In D-Town http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121804 Steve In D-Town Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:34:37 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121804 I agree with Brenden. Nate is strangely not pitching, and when he does, he gets rocked. Why is he not being optioned or released is beyond me. Great guy, not great pitcher not anymore. Rick Perry NEEDS to be in the minors. He still has to tweak things. We gambled and rushed him. We sorta lost. Now its time for him to gain more minor league experience and work on his control. Id say keep him there until September call ups. I agree with Brenden. Nate is strangely not pitching, and when he does, he gets rocked. Why is he not being optioned or released is beyond me. Great guy, not great pitcher not anymore. Rick Perry NEEDS to be in the minors. He still has to tweak things. We gambled and rushed him. We sorta lost. Now its time for him to gain more minor league experience and work on his control. Id say keep him there until September call ups.

]]> By: Keith (Mr. X) http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121803 Keith (Mr. X) Sun, 21 Jun 2009 21:30:30 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2009/06/game-2009-069-brewers-at-tigers/#comment-121803 It wasn't a stupid contract. Robertson earned every penny of it. He's thrown more innings than any other Tiger pitcher in the past 20 years. He's had over 1,000 innings for us. Nate has earned my loyalty and respect. I'm not sure where his career is headed, but deserves some gratitude from the fans. Inge was basically in the same boat and he bounced back. Holding onto Nate is the wise thing to do. It wasn’t a stupid contract. Robertson earned every penny of it. He’s thrown more innings than any other Tiger pitcher in the past 20 years. He’s had over 1,000 innings for us. Nate has earned my loyalty and respect. I’m not sure where his career is headed, but deserves some gratitude from the fans. Inge was basically in the same boat and he bounced back. Holding onto Nate is the wise thing to do.

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