I guess what your saying is the talent pool is greater. I agree. It is pretty obvious if there is a large population vying for a slightly greater # of spots you’re going to have more talent. Also with all the off field improvements. My point is that it has/had shifted towards power/strikeouts guys and away from speed and contact on most teams.

Oh and if it is Everett from this year, I’d for sure take him.

Or how about this? Would you rather face Ray Oyler or Adam Everett in the same situation? It’s probably a more apt comparison. A weak hitting defensive specialist shortstop from one era versus the same of another era. Comparing a marginal All Star to a Hall of Famer and someone who is one of the best at what they do isn’t really a fair fight.

You are right and I agree with that. But, as I pointed out, Verlander (since he has dominant stuff) should be pitching to contact somewhat and still missing bats. He should be going 8 innings unless he gets shelled.

Even a “gassed pitcher” such as Verlander still has above average stuff, and should be able to locate his pitches for another inning or two to get guys out. This is a guy who has an excellent fastball, and excellent curve and two other good pitches.

Nearly the only times I’d advocate yanking a pitcher is when they are getting hit hard – ie multiple line shots within a short period of time, or they can’t find the plate.

@ Paragraph 2
For this point again I wasn’t for having guys throw 300 innings. And if 17 could do it at least twice, many more could do it once or get very close to it. And I’m in agreement that it probably for most pitchers is not a good thing. Then again in today’s 5man rotation I think it would be near impossible – 300innings/33starts = 9.09 innings/start. Now that would be real durability! and an average of over a complete game/start. Still all in all I see where you are coming from. I agree and if he averages 220-230 IP from here on until he is 35 I would be happy.

@ your third paragraph

I’ll use two current hitters. One who is in the mold of many pre 1920 players and even quite a few pre 1980 players.

You tell me if you were pitching who you’d rather pitch to(if you had ace type stuff) with the game on the line. (ie guy on third 2 outs)

Tony Gwynn or Adam Dunn

One makes contact, fouling off tons of pitches, uses the entire field, is a thinker, plays with max. effort and can beat out a infield hit – is not slow.

The other is usually all or nothing. (or possibly a walk)

One is a Hall of Famer, the other is well nicknamed The Donkey. Take your pick.

I’d rather pitch to Adam Dunn 10 out of 10 times

heck change Adam Dunn to Jack Cust or Curtis Granderson or Brandon Inge or dozens of other current players players who might not be as extreme example as him, but still are more on his side of the fence than Gwynn’s side.

Baseball is NOT a power display. (For winners at least) “It is a display of hitting ‘em where they ain’t.” And being a quick man both with the mind and the feet.

And how does pointing out that 300 inning seasons isn’t sustainable for players hurt my cause? I’m sure a handful of players could go and throw 300 innings this year, and I’d bet that most of them would never be able to do it again.

As for your point about offenses of the past, there were always bad teams with bad offenses. But team in and team out there is more offensive depth now than before. Do you have anything to support the fact that hitters in the past were better? Going the other way and not striking out doesn’t inherently make you a better hitter.

I was advocating 220-250 year in year out if 32-33 starts are given. That is an average of 6.67 to 7.57 IP/start.

Still I was under the impression that, and please correct me if I’m wrong, Verlander and Porcello are supposed to (or will in time) have wicked league tops stuff.

Lets quickly look at several current or recently retired pitchers who I consider to be elite or close to that level(my impression of Verlander and Porcello) and see how many innings they could log if they had ~33 starts.

Roy Halladay
He has had 31+ starts 5x so far… He has logged 220, 225.33, 239.33, 246.0 and 266 IP. This year he is on pace to log according to ESPN 260 IP.

Johan Santana
From 2004-2008 he was given 33 or 34 starts. He logged anywhere from a min. 219.0 innings pitched to 234.33. This year he is on pace for ~223.333.

For the rest I’m going to take the average from baseball reference if the player were to play a full season

Jake Peavy 216IP
Roy Oswalt 222 IP
Cliff Lee 209IP
Roger Clemens 236IP
Randy Johnson 232 IP
Mark Buehrle 224 IP
Dan Haren 215 IP
Greg Maddux 229IP
Tim Lincecum 220IP
Carlos Zambrano 213IP
CC Sabathia 223IP
Andy Pettite 216IP
Felix Hernandez 218IP

I could keep going but this I think is a large enough sample size.

All I’m saying is that these guys are averaging between 6.33 and 7.33 IP/start.

Verlander and Porcello(in time) should be going 7 on a regular basis and pitching not 90 or 100 pitches but be allowed to get into the 120 range.

If you overtax the pen they get exposed. Thats why if Robertson and Miner are in the rotation and Jim yanks them after 5IP it angers me. Its a surefire way to muck up the entire week.

It might be OK to have one guy last that long on average (ie Porcello) but IMO there is a big difference(both short and long term) between the pen logging 28 IP/week or 18 IP/week.

And to say there aren’t many holes in the lineups of today…
1) Good pitching should always beats good hitting
2) Oakland or KC or Chicago or Seattle so far this year has a strong lineup? And the rest can’t be dominated by an excellent SP? I realize there are some strong hitting ball clubs, but they can be put to sleep on any given night if they are facing a hot and/or talented SP. (ie what we’ve been seeing from Verlander lately)

Plus, I think that although there probably wasn’t as much talent in the leagues in the past, hitters on the average were better (they on average had a much better approach). They were more like Polanco in that they didn’t K and like Ordonez in that they went the other way. Especially the further back you go.

Plus, they were on the average much faster than the players of today. There were not nearly as high a % of slow sluggers.

Anyways my first point is the main one. JV and RP(within a few years) should be logging at least ~220 IP/33 starts. And I’m hoping we can find (or have found in Jackson or Bondo or through trades/free agency $$ or the draft) one or two more guys who can do that.

“Sure, I’d prefer Scioscia, Gardenhire, or Guillen over Leyland”

Guillen? Ozzie effing Guillen? Say whatever you want about Leyland, but seriously? Guillen? Maybe its just b/c I read a lot more about him…but the W. Sox success has a lot more to do with Kenny Williams than it does Ozzie. That guy is a straight up bigoted punk, and I wish the next guy that he calls a p.o.s. would smack him.

errr…rant over.

And most the guys on that list got to face a pitcher and 1-2 weak hitting middle infielders. There aren’t as many holes in the lineup today.

I guess I’m of the “old time baseball” camp where I think starters should go deep into games.

To be honest I liked the four man rotations and I hate pens for the most part. How could guys pitch 300 innings back in the day, but most guys fail to get to 200 today with 33 starts. Starting pitchers pitch every fifth or sixth day, they should be darn able to get through 6 innings almost every start unless they are getting hammered (ie Oakland tonight).

This sport is slowly evolving into football, and its grossing me out. Soon we’ll have 6 man rotations and have certain players playing once a week. It has already become slow pitch softball with the amount of guys swinging for the fences. We’ve got a DH in 1/2 the leagues.

Heck why not have 9 DHes and 9 Brandon Inges? Be great for the game, fantastic diving plays all over the infield on sharp hits.

Heck why don’t we expand the roster and have everyone be a reliever specialist. Have 200 man rosters.

All joking/raving aside, do you want me to list the games?

Well I’ll do the first 5, since I don’t want to spend too much time.

1) Game 2 of the season, where Jackson pitched 7.33 with 1ER and had 89 pitches at the time of his departure. He should have gone at least another inning and 2/3, that should have been his game to win (or blow – which Lyon did 2x).

2) Game 3 of the season. Miner goes 5.67 with 1 ER. If it were me I would have left Miner in until most likely he had at least gotten into the eighth.

3) Game 5. Home opener. I would have most likely left Armando in all 9 innings.

4)Game 6. I would have left Verlander in most likely for at least another inning.

5)Game 9. I would have let Armando finish the 7th and most likely let him pitch the 8th if he felt like it.

I could keep going, but that should give you a good idea on where I’m coming from. If you agree with it is another matter.

One thing I will say is that yes you are right on JV, Leyland has been taxing him lately, as he should. Verlander needs to be an ace, and a workhorse. 220-250 innings is not unreasonable and should be expected yearly by now of someone of his caliber, that has his stuff.

If you (by you I mean anyone) complain or whine that he is taking them out too late and then our pen blows it – well… I’ve got to say I told you so.

Starters are starters for a reason and are by definition meant to be taxed. If Robertson can only pitch five innings then he (in my opinion) is not a starter, he is a long relief guy.

Starters if they are throwing well and have 3 or fewer ER most often should be allowed to continue throwing until at least 120+ pitches.

The only guy I’d baby somewhat this year would be Porcello, just because it is a huge jump in competition along with workload. But eventually I have the a similar judging mark for him as I do Verlander. He should be able to get there(220 innings) by the 2011 or 2012 season in my opinion.

Let’s imagine that he threw some pitches halfway through the rain delay. That’s the equivalent of him having a quick half inning between two long half innings when his offense is up to bat. Maybe that’s not what happened. I don’t think what Leyland did was particularly reckless today.

Verlander’s arm might fall off soon if he keeps on going this deep into games. Bonderman was always a head case and throws 30 something pitches in the 1st inning most games, so he gets yanked after about 6 innings. Kenny Rogers had nothing to give after 2006, so he’d just get what he could from him. Nate Robertson was never more than a 5 inning pitcher. It’s easy to tell when Edwin Jackson is done. He loses command after about 80 pitches and starts walking guys. Leyland has used Jackson perfectly so far. Galarraga is easy to figure out also because he starts getting hit hard after 6 innings. Usually when Leyland leaves someone out there past the 6th inning they usually get into trouble right away. Problem is we have nobody in the bullpen that can pitch when they come in with men on base. Not one reliever can be depended on to get us out of a jam.