Game 2009.012: Tigers at Mariners

PREGAME: It’s a rubber match! Okay, maybe the exclamation point wasn’t necessary. The Mariners haven’t lost a series this year but the Tigers have a chance to take them down.

Today will be Rick Porcello’s second career start. I’d guess his pitch limit would be in the 95-100 pitch range and we’ll see if he attacks the strike zone like he did in his first outing.

Carlos Silva takes the mound for the Mariners. The Tigers beat him mercilessly last year. A 472/500/660 line was what they did to him in 3 games last year and a similar performance would certainly make things easier on Porcello.

Anybody remember the last get-away game the Tigers played in Seattle? It went 15 innings and the Tigers got the win against catcher Jamie Burke?

Game Time 4:10

Detroit vs. Seattle – April 19, 2009 | Gameday

POSTGAME: A very nice all around effort today. Rick Porcello is the big story getting his first win. He allowed baserunners, and I think with his style he will. There will inevitably a couple of infield hits and jam shots. But with the heavy heavy sinker he chucks he’ll also throw a number of double play balls.

It seemed like he didn’t have pinpoint command early in the game, but in the end he finished with 56 of 86 pitches going for strikes and lasting 7 innings. A little suprised to see Porcello out of the game at that point. I thought this would have been a good opportunity to stretch him out a little more. But I also understand the decision to not needlessly have him throw extra innings.

The pen allowed a run and baserunners, but it was largely inconsequential. It was only noteworthy because Bobby Seay allowed a bloop single, the first baserunner he’s allowed this year.

Offensively the Tigers did what they needed to do against Carlos Silva. And the bottom of the order continued to amaze. On a team full of All Stars, Ramon Santiago was the only one to find a gap all series when he cleared the bases with a double, just 3 of the 5 RBI he had on the day. And Josh Anderson and Brandon Inge continued to mash as well. The Tigers only had 4 extra base hits all series, and Anderson/Inge/Santiago accounted for 3 of them.

On to Orange County.


  1. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 3:50 pm

    In fairness to burke, he was dealing 🙂

  2. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 4:31 pm

    When’s the last time a Tigers’ player stole third base? Probably Granderson at some point.

  3. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 4:33 pm

    Love Josh Anderson. I can’t remember the last time we had someone who could steal 3rd base.

  4. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 4:34 pm

    Actually, I think Sheffield probably done it.

  5. billfer

    April 19, 2009 at 4:46 pm

    I think Cabrera did it once last year also.

  6. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 4:53 pm

    Not sure if anyone’s watching the extra innings mariners feed, but the nicole zaloumis (cute sideline reporter for fsn northwest) commercial puts the hazel mae commercials here in boston to shame.

    Darn this cedeno!

  7. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 5:03 pm

    Now we’re in business.

  8. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 5:08 pm

    I think Carlos Silva should be our honorary whipping boy.

  9. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    Sqeeze again!!!!!!!!!!!!! OMG!!! Love these Tigers!!

  10. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 5:09 pm

    Didn’t grandy go headfirst to home the other day as well? Gotta love the squeeze though.

  11. Chris

    April 19, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Good things happen when Carlos Silva is on the hill

  12. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 5:13 pm

    Sure hope BInge can keep this up. With his typical defense and this improved batting, he could move right up in the line up permanently.

    What’s the word on Everett?

  13. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 5:16 pm

    Russ – everett has the flu

  14. Ryan P.

    April 19, 2009 at 5:18 pm

    According to last night’s recap, half the team has the flu. I’m kind of confused as to why Everett is the only one it’s holding out.

  15. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 5:19 pm

    I hope they’ve made Everett bubble-boy until he returns to good health.

  16. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 5:20 pm

    Didn’t appear to inhibit edwin last night

  17. billfer

    April 19, 2009 at 5:24 pm

    a) he’s sicker than the others
    b) his replacement is doing well

  18. David

    April 19, 2009 at 5:28 pm

    INGE! Headfirst into 2nd and beautiful side into home. And of course a nice hit. Nice steal also by Anderson. I hate to say it but good managing by Leyland using teh small ball. Porcello has looked pretty awesome so far (no jinx) with 2/3 of his pitches being called for strikes with this long rest between starts.

    The following is from a favorite site of mine on Ty Cobb’s base running godlike ability. Thought it might connect to Anderson’s steal of third. Don’t know how many times he stole third (I’m guessing a lot since he said it is easier to steal third than second ). But one of the many records he still holds is the steal of home (something you rarely see anymore). He had 54, the guy in second Max Carrey has 33!

    Ty Cobb’s routine style of play was so hyper-aggressive that it defies credibility. On 3 different occasions, he stole 2nd, third & home, before the batter at the plate had finished his at-bat. And once on 3 pitches! Now that’s, “In your face!!” He routinely scored from second on infield outs. He routinely went from 1st to 3rd on infield outs. Once he scored from 1st on an infield out. He often scored from 1st on outfield singles. With him on 1st base, the pitcher became a thrower, helping the batter by his antics. Ty recognized no unwritten “gentlemen’s” rules. He do’d anything to throw you off your game. In spades. Mixing perfected mechanical ability with brains, his was the most versatile batting attack on record. Other dangerous hitters, such as Ruth, Williams or Bonds could be disposed of by walking them. Without fear.
    But Cobb was too dangerous to put first. That was prelude to a pitchers nightmare scenario. Because once on base, with Cobb trash-talking & dancing off 1st, the bedeviled pitcher became a thrower. The hitter following Cobb had a much easier life than he deserved, courtesy of Cobb. So once again, as in the taking of extra bases, we have Cobb contributions to winning that cannot be quantified or documented by Mr. Sabermetrician.

  19. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 5:29 pm

    good points billfer. 🙂

  20. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 5:30 pm

    wow. the kid’s doing well.

  21. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    Wow, Cabrera even strikes out his way onto first…

  22. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 5:35 pm

    Porcello is a playing some sweet string music.

  23. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    We are kittenballing them to death

  24. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 5:39 pm

    Is it recorded as an earned run if Cabrera scores?

  25. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    That almost looked like a semi-intentional walk to Inge…with 1-3 and no out?? Or Lowe just can’t find the strike zone, in which case this may be a long long inning…

  26. Ryan P.

    April 19, 2009 at 5:42 pm

    I love Josh Anderson.

  27. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    Would be nice to see treanor break through here

  28. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 5:43 pm

    @Forty: I don’t know if we can call it kittenball without Matt Joyce…

  29. Ryan P.

    April 19, 2009 at 5:44 pm

    Another off day tomorrow? Killin’ me!

  30. Tom

    April 19, 2009 at 5:46 pm

    Treanor needs a nickname. How about “The Human Double-Play Machine”?

    I have an idea, let’s let his wife be our backup catcher instead. She’s a good athlete, at least.

  31. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    And Treanor with the Daily Double on GIDP!

    @Russ: I doubt that’s what you meant by “break through”…ouch.

  32. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    Tom – and who would you rather watch run the bases? Plus, maybe we could get walsh to bolster the pen? She would be an intimidator on the hill.

  33. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 5:48 pm

    Would you bring Porcello back for another if he closes the inning out with no problem or do you let him go until he hits a higher pitch count. I say yank him to save the arm. Thoughts?

  34. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 5:50 pm

    Porcello is getting a squeezed vertically. The sinker is even fooling the umpire.

  35. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    Russ – kid’s on fire, I’d let him go the seventh

  36. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    Time to bring in Nate and rest the young phenom’s arm some.

  37. Tom

    April 19, 2009 at 5:51 pm

    @Forty – Let’s do the spousal trade for Misty May, but let’s leave Kerri Walsh out of it. She scares me.

  38. Ryan P.

    April 19, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    Oh, he definitely gets at least one more inning. He looks fantastic and only 76 pitches.

  39. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 5:52 pm

    I say let him stay out there. He’s already on nine days rest.

  40. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 5:53 pm

    @Tom: I’m not sure about that idea, there’s something wrong about picturing her spending the game all crouched loaded down with catcher gear and mask…

  41. Tom

    April 19, 2009 at 5:55 pm

    @Coleman, I’m trying to be creative here, Treanor needs to stop batting. Does the designated hitter HAVE to hit for the pitcher? I’m just sayin.

  42. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    I think a while back there was some sort of consensus that a “bullpen-proof” lead was 5 plus, and 4 wasn’t enough, so maybe we need to score one here if we’re gonna sit Porcello…

  43. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    ouch. that was a fast 3. ouch.

  44. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 5:58 pm

    Um, nevermind that. i guess Maggs was feeling left out of the GIDP fun…

  45. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 6:00 pm

    @coleman: didn’t lyon blow a 5 run lead?

  46. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 6:01 pm


  47. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    LOB totals: SEA: 6 Treanor: 5

    His .000 BA so far is deceptively high…

  48. Ryan P.

    April 19, 2009 at 6:03 pm

    Haha, nice Brandon.

  49. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    The 3rd out can’t come soon enough, they’re hitting him hard this inning…

  50. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 6:04 pm

    wow. ok. i was wrong. keeping him in for at least one more was a good idea. 🙂

  51. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    In comes Kyle Farnsworth for the Royals, tied 5-5 in the 9th.

  52. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 6:05 pm

    Coleman – yeah, he scared me a bit there as well. Tough to complain too much though when a 20 year old phenom shuts down 14 in a row, so I’ll take it 🙂

  53. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:06 pm

    @Russ: well there are limits to all general guidelines. Sometimes there are performances so special that normal standards become meaningless…

  54. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 6:07 pm

    @coleman: true that.

  55. Brian P

    April 19, 2009 at 6:08 pm

    And Farnsworth gives up a homer to the first batter he faces. Game over.

  56. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:09 pm

    I’m telling you there’s some sort of Inge force-field…there are an abnormal number of errors that occur when he’s batting and on base…

  57. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    wow. betancourt just became the tigers’ best friend! 😛

  58. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Love you Farnsworth.

  59. Forty

    April 19, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    Yuni looking like renteria out there

  60. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:10 pm

    The Royals got Farnsworth and apparently the Mariners seem to have Renteria…

  61. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    That ball carried well. Santiago is the man!

  62. Ryan P.

    April 19, 2009 at 6:12 pm

    I love this team right now.

  63. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:13 pm

    @Forty: @!#!! beat me to it…

    Treanor owes Santiago–he took the GIDP Hat Trick possibility off the table…

  64. Russ

    April 19, 2009 at 6:15 pm

    CG needs batting lessons from BInge.

  65. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:18 pm

    Everett’s flu may leave him with some “Wally Pipp” after-effects…

  66. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    @Russ: yeah, Carlos is hitting a too-Betancourt-fieldable ball out there…

  67. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 6:21 pm

    When this season started, I thought the bottom of the line-up was going to be an abyss, but it’s turned out to be the most exciting part of the line-up. Even Leyland is making some good calls. Several hit n runs have worked this season, where last year I don’t remember it ever working. About 6 bunt plays have worked great so far and 2 of them were squeeze bunts. Small ball at it’s best.

  68. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:27 pm

    @Mr. X: As of yesterday we had the best 7-9 team stats in the league, and probably still do, although moving Inge up to 6 changes things a bit. And if Grandy-Polly-Maggs don’t start getting on base more, Cabrera’s going to have a hard time keeping his RBI lead with Inge and Santiago closing in on him…

  69. Steve

    April 19, 2009 at 6:35 pm

    Does anyone know why Ichiro Suzuki has his first name on his jersey instead of Suzuki.


  70. David

    April 19, 2009 at 6:36 pm

  71. Adam

    April 19, 2009 at 6:36 pm

    3 way tie for first?

  72. David

    April 19, 2009 at 6:38 pm

    @ Steve

    Yes, Suzuki is a very popular last name in Japan (I’ve read it is the second most popular). His coach (in Japan with the Orix I believe) early on told him to do that to differentiate himself since Ichiro isn’t nearly as common. He has and has kept it!

  73. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 6:39 pm

    Ichiro has always had “Ichiro” on his jersey, even in Japan, not sure why, but maybe because there were so many Suzuki’s in Japan.

  74. Steve

    April 19, 2009 at 6:40 pm

    @ David ……….. Thanks

  75. David

    April 19, 2009 at 6:41 pm

    Here to add – from wiki

    I was right but this goes a bit more in depth

    “It was during the 1994 season that he began to use his given name, “Ichiro” instead of his family name, “Suzuki” on the back of his uniform. Suzuki is the second most common family name in Japan, and his manager introduced the idea as a publicity stunt to help create a new image for what had been a relatively weak team, as well as a way to distinguish their rising star. Initially, Ichiro disliked the practice and was embarrassed by it; “Ichiro” was a household name by the end of the season and he was flooded with endorsement offers.”

  76. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:42 pm

    @Steve: it’s a little confusing, but basically in Japanese his name is Suzuki Ichiro, and Ichiro is actually his “last name.” Which is less confusing than if the back of his jersey read: 朗

  77. David

    April 19, 2009 at 6:46 pm

    No problemo Steve, I was studying him a bit the other day hah! Very interesting guy and fantastic player (although he hasn’t looked great this series).

    Guy was considered too small for Japanese teams (when he was 5’9, 124lbs) but he ended up being a star… Then MLB teams thought he was too small at 5’9 ~165, and would be no more than a fourth outfielder. I think he should be a first ballot Hall of Famer.

    Fantastic speed, fantastic eye, fantastic arm, fantastic work ethic, fantastic contact, funny guy. Each season he has had over 200 hits, the guy is 2nd (behind Pujols) among active players in batting average, guy is a beast. He is old now though 🙁

  78. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:52 pm

    @David: in addition the way you commonly write your name in Japan anyway is family name then given name (eg: Cobb – Ty) so names often get translated backwards. Which I actually have always thought had a logical sense to it, the general then the specific…

  79. Tom

    April 19, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    Ah Brandon Lyon. Do we have another pitcher who can make an 8-2 game interesting in the bottom of the 9th? That was to be our closer, folks.

    But, other than that crapfest, good game!

  80. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 6:55 pm

    Tigers played an excellent game. Great series and we are back in 3 way tie for 1st.

  81. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 6:59 pm

    @David: have you ever seen videos of Ichiro when he was in high school? Amazing stuff.

  82. Steve

    April 19, 2009 at 7:00 pm

    Good win, good series. We need to rack up all and any kind of wins we can.

    Good for Rick Porcello… What are we going to do when Bondo and Z come back? If they come back to their former selves what are your thoughts on utilization or trades?

  83. Brenden

    April 19, 2009 at 7:02 pm

    Great outing by the youngster Porcello today, he showed some real poise. I am starting to wonder how long it is going to take for Leyland to make Josh Anderson the starter in LF and keep Guillen at DH. Anderson has shown to be a vital part of the offense and can play LF pretty well. I say keep starting Santiago until he stops producing. This is pretty good team right now, let’s just keep it up.

  84. Coleman

    April 19, 2009 at 7:03 pm

    Oh and it looks like Ichiro isn’t the first MLB player to wear his given name on his jersey, he is the 2nd. Good trivia question stuff: the first was Vida Blue, who apparently wore Vida on his jersey (weird, I’ve seen him pitch, but don’t remember that).

    Therefore, obviously, while Suzuki is the 2nd most common name in Japan, the most common is Blue.

  85. Steve

    April 19, 2009 at 7:10 pm

    I agree with Brenden lets keep it rolling……….. The Angels (sans most of their pitching) will be a good test for us. Great timing to have the kids off from school so we can stay up late and watch the Tigers.

  86. David

    April 19, 2009 at 7:37 pm

    Coleman to reply to your first post

    that is true and I know, but… the others don’t do it….his case is special/unique it was something started in japan

    Ichiro Suzuki

    Hideki Matsui
    Kazuo Matsui
    Hideo Nomo
    Koji Uehara
    All the rest (like Americans/all other players I know except Vida Blue who you just pointed out) use their last names. Or I should say surnames.

    As far as your second post, yes I have – he is sooooooooooooooo small. I can see why scouts might have been turned off. I liked him in the Jap. leagues better when he was in his younger 20s.

    awesome vid with (in my opinion) perfect music
    very impressive arm/range in the OF.

  87. Brenden

    April 19, 2009 at 7:48 pm

    What does everyone else think about Josh Anderson being the starter in LF permanently and Guillen at DH?

  88. Mr. X

    April 19, 2009 at 8:20 pm

    Anderson doesn’t hit lefties very well. That’s his main weakness and probably why he’s been traded a few times already. He won’t be starting in about 33% of the games because there are 7 lefties and 13 righties in our division. If Anderson keeps playing well though, he could hit himself into a platoon role. Unfortunately, Thames will end up getting the short end of the stick again.

  89. Scott

    April 19, 2009 at 9:34 pm

    Is it just me, or does Porcello look like the second coming of Derek Lowe?

  90. David

    April 19, 2009 at 10:16 pm

    Brenden I’ve argued for Guillen at DH on this site and others for years now. He was never the same after he had his surgery on his knee.

    I like Anderson in the outfield a lot. I’m a big speed/contact/defense guy for the most part.

    I do think Thames has value though…he plays hard (slides hard), he has a bit of pop (although he is usually feast or famine – which isn’t ideal at all), and never (in public at least) complains about his playing time (or lack thereof).

    Still I’d rather they trade him (partly for his benefit) for 2 or 3 MiLB players pref. acquire some VERY YOUNG control pitchers or good under 20 prospects – one of which that is projected to be decent at least. If there is a team that needs OF help, or power I’m sure they’d give him a look.

    Still we always hear trade talk and it never materializes…personally I don’t think he is getting traded anytime soon

    We have a guy in Hessman(sitting at AAA) who can basically do the same thing if given the shot and can also play IF.

  91. Ryan

    April 19, 2009 at 10:25 pm

    @Scott – I agree with you, he does sort of remind me of Derek Lowe. But, with a lot of improvement, he could be the next Roy Halladay. He shows signs of being able to feature a low to mid 90s fastball with a ton of movement, and he is very efficient.

  92. scotsw

    April 19, 2009 at 10:28 pm

    Some great pitching all around from the Tigers in this series… 1 bad inning out of 26: That Verlander 5th. Ouch.

    Nice to see them scrap this way. But folks, Gerald Laird won’t continue to hit .333, Cabrera won’t continue to mash over. 500, Santiago won’t put up 5 Ribbies a night, etc. So, Grandy, Maggs and Guillen have to start hitting sometime. The bottom of the order WILL revert toward the mean here soon.

  93. Brian

    April 19, 2009 at 11:15 pm

    The key to this season will be Verlander pitching like he did in 2006 and 2007, and Bonderman and Zumaya coming back healthy and shoring up our pitching, and Rodney continuing his excellence as a closer. If that happens, I’m not concerned about our line-up or defense. That will take care of itself this year.

  94. ron

    April 20, 2009 at 12:43 am

    Jimmy got em’ goin’ in the right direction now.

  95. Coleman

    April 20, 2009 at 1:16 am

    @scotsw: while I agree that some of the Tigers will revert toward the mean, the question is how much…having a good 7-9 lineup makes a big difference (although usually OBP is more important than the power they’ve been showing)

    But even AT the mean they don’t look so bad. For example Inge: career, WHILE 3B, averaged over 640 PA: 19 HR 80 RBI .256/.327/.427. If he’s as good or better than career avg with his new stance, he’s going to cause a lot of trouble for pitchers…as long as Carlos stops clearing the bases with GIDP. And Santiago 2.0 seems to be a different player, who is continuing to show the power he had at the end of last season.

  96. Joey back in Portland OR

    April 20, 2009 at 3:28 am

    While at the game today I realized that not only Treanor was the only player on the field today who was 0-for the season. Jamie Burke (of pitching fame from last season) is also hitless for the season. I was hoping Matt, or really EITHER of them would do something other than make outs! (neither did)

    I was also having the same convo about Ichiro’s name today. It was Ichiro weekend at Safeco, bobblehead friday night and jersey today. So I decided to purposely yell out Suzuki instead whenever jeering him. I”m not sure if some of the fans around me knew who I was talking about!

  97. ron

    April 20, 2009 at 9:48 am

    [comment deleted]

  98. Jeff

    April 20, 2009 at 10:20 am

    Wow, Ron. No place for that kind of comment.

  99. Ryan P

    April 20, 2009 at 11:04 am

    In order to have Ichiro on his jersey, he actually had to legally change his name. I’m not sure whether it was to just Ichiro or Suzuki Ichiro, but Ichiro is now his legal last name (At least here. I’m not sure if a name change here also applies in Japan).

    Remember Pearl Harbor? Really? Lot of Inge fans on here. Remember Andersonville and the Crusades. Right? Because everyone is responsible for everything anyone of their race ever did.

    I’d also like to officially cast my Tigers MVP vote for Rick Knapp.

  100. Andre in Chi

    April 20, 2009 at 12:13 pm


    I have no idea where to put this, so apologies…

    Anyways, it appears that if he starts (and that’s a big “if”), Chien-Ming Wang’s next start would likely come against the Tigers on April 28th.

    Chien-Ming Wang: 34.50 ERA; 6 IP; 23 H; 6 BB; 2 K


  101. Chris in Dallas

    April 20, 2009 at 12:29 pm

    OK I have to go there…”Yankees Wang Impotent”

  102. Chris in Dallas

    April 20, 2009 at 12:32 pm

    Ryan P: Are you Ryan Perry? lol. I’ve got to agree with the Rick Knapp love. The focus was supposed to be on pounding the strike zone, and by and large the pitching staff has been doing just that so far. Let’s hope it continues. Somewhere Chuck Hernandez weeps.

  103. Chris in Dallas

    April 20, 2009 at 12:38 pm

    Nene is another guy in sports who does the Cher thing and only goes by one name. I think Yao Ming has Yao on the back of his jersey as well. Gary Sheffield’s Mets jersey has GIDP for his name…

  104. Andre in Chi

    April 20, 2009 at 12:40 pm


    I felt your pain this weekend – while at the bar (in Chi) watching the Wings I happened to overhear this comment:

    “I heard Simmons say that the Tigers are gonna move Cabrera to Boston to dump his salary”.

    I then had to spend 10min (drunkenly) explaining why there was no way that M-Cab was going to the R-Sox in July. It probably wasn’t as well put as your comments (read: remotely coherent), but when I was done, they got the idea…

  105. Coleman

    April 20, 2009 at 7:24 pm

    @Andre in Chi: I think too much winning for Boston fans has made them a bit unstable. A Boston friend of mine texted me the Cabrera rumor and I responded that the Tigers were also going to trade Ryan Perry to Boston for the rights to Schilling in case he ever un-retired–and it took him a while to figure out I was joking…