Comments on: Winter meetings end with a bang (my head against the wall) http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Smoking Loon http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109915 Smoking Loon Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:50:57 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109915 "Or…they’re simply mistakes." Absolutely. Just not mistakes of the type where, say, some factotum is typing up the 40-man list, sees Skelton and thinks it's Shelton and omits him ("Dude's not even in the organization anymore! Sheesh!") and just substitutes the first guy in the alphabetical list of "the other guys".... Bonine. Ken in Las Vegas, who used to work for the Tigers a long time ago, got fired over a similar incident. But I'll let him tell the story. billfer - If Hessman and Clevlen weren't being kept as contingencies, what's the risk of passing them through waivers? Losing guys to stock Toledo with? I'm not being sarcastic, just wondering whether you think the Tigers consider those guys handy to keep in the organization for any other reason. Actually, you already answered the question for Clevlen. rings, you bring up an interesting point about Skelton being a PH, PR, defensive substitution. An NL team has more room for a guy like that, I think. Then again, maybe there was a clerical error on the Diamondbacks' side, and they think they're getting Shelton. It's not that far from Las Vegas... “Or…they’re simply mistakes.”

Absolutely. Just not mistakes of the type where, say, some factotum is typing up the 40-man list, sees Skelton and thinks it’s Shelton and omits him (“Dude’s not even in the organization anymore! Sheesh!”) and just substitutes the first guy in the alphabetical list of “the other guys”…. Bonine. Ken in Las Vegas, who used to work for the Tigers a long time ago, got fired over a similar incident. But I’ll let him tell the story.

billfer – If Hessman and Clevlen weren’t being kept as contingencies, what’s the risk of passing them through waivers? Losing guys to stock Toledo with? I’m not being sarcastic, just wondering whether you think the Tigers consider those guys handy to keep in the organization for any other reason. Actually, you already answered the question for Clevlen.

rings, you bring up an interesting point about Skelton being a PH, PR, defensive substitution. An NL team has more room for a guy like that, I think. Then again, maybe there was a clerical error on the Diamondbacks’ side, and they think they’re getting Shelton. It’s not that far from Las Vegas…

]]> By: rings http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109913 rings Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:09:20 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109913 "they simply cannot be oversights or simply “asinine”" - Smoking Loon. Or...they're simply mistakes. As Bilfer says, in regards to Skelton, I'm sure their scouts debated his value because of his size versus his performance like everyone else does, so they probably assumed that no one would claim him...in which case, they miscalculated. As for his chances of sticking, I'd think AZ knew what they were doing. If they like his potential, they might use a roster spot and make a utility out of him, use him as a PR, PH (he can get on base) or defensive guy for a year, and retain his rights. Heck, the Tigers did the same thing with Shelton in '04 (well, aside from the PR part, LOL!) “they simply cannot be oversights or simply “asinine”” – Smoking Loon.

Or…they’re simply mistakes.
As Bilfer says, in regards to Skelton, I’m sure their scouts debated his value because of his size versus his performance like everyone else does, so they probably assumed that no one would claim him…in which case, they miscalculated.

As for his chances of sticking, I’d think AZ knew what they were doing. If they like his potential, they might use a roster spot and make a utility out of him, use him as a PR, PH (he can get on base) or defensive guy for a year, and retain his rights. Heck, the Tigers did the same thing with Shelton in ’04 (well, aside from the PR part, LOL!)

]]> By: Rick G http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109912 Rick G Mon, 15 Dec 2008 01:03:08 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109912 Loon, you make about as much sense as possible, I guess. But I had always figured rule 5 draftees tended to be guys with high ceilings who just weren't ready yet for their current club to move to the majors. Thus you draft a player onto your 25 man roster in 2009 with the hopes that the kid will be really good in 2010 or 2011. For Skelton's sake, I hope he turns into a Craig Biggio type player and has a nice long career. But man, that would be tough to watch as a Tiger fan. I don't expect him to come back, Arizona knows what they're drafting. Loon, you make about as much sense as possible, I guess. But I had always figured rule 5 draftees tended to be guys with high ceilings who just weren’t ready yet for their current club to move to the majors. Thus you draft a player onto your 25 man roster in 2009 with the hopes that the kid will be really good in 2010 or 2011.

For Skelton’s sake, I hope he turns into a Craig Biggio type player and has a nice long career. But man, that would be tough to watch as a Tiger fan. I don’t expect him to come back, Arizona knows what they’re drafting.

]]> By: billfer http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109910 billfer Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:53:19 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109910 Well Hessman and Clevlen were already on the roster and removing them would have meant passing them through waivers - like what happened to Virgil Vasquez. So I don't think they were kept as contingencies, though I don't know the reason. Clevlen could be the 5th outfielder this year and would be the Granderson's back-up in centerfield. Plus he's out of options making his spring performance critical. Bonine has a bum shoulder making his inclusion all the more curious. McBride is coming off an injury so his chances of being claimed were pretty small. With Skelton I'll guess that the org doesn't think he will stick on another big league roster and that they'd like to retain him. Well Hessman and Clevlen were already on the roster and removing them would have meant passing them through waivers – like what happened to Virgil Vasquez. So I don’t think they were kept as contingencies, though I don’t know the reason. Clevlen could be the 5th outfielder this year and would be the Granderson’s back-up in centerfield. Plus he’s out of options making his spring performance critical.

Bonine has a bum shoulder making his inclusion all the more curious. McBride is coming off an injury so his chances of being claimed were pretty small.

With Skelton I’ll guess that the org doesn’t think he will stick on another big league roster and that they’d like to retain him.

]]> By: Smoking Loon http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109909 Smoking Loon Mon, 15 Dec 2008 00:33:43 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109909 Could Hessman have been placed on the roster because of the possibility of trading Larish? Clevlen because of the possibility of trading Joyce? Bonine because the acquisition of another starter was uncertain, and he's a control guy with some Tigers experience (slim pickings on the farm), and Knapp opined that he liked him? Could Skelton have been left off because they think he really is a long shot to both make it and fit the plan (at whatever position), and didn't exactly <i>count</i> on losing him but instead took a gamble that he would more likely be passed over than Figaro and any other prospects they protected? Or did they maybe intend to make Skelton part of a trade which never materialized? Those are my best guesses, based on what little I know. Could Hessman have been placed on the roster because of the possibility of trading Larish? Clevlen because of the possibility of trading Joyce? Bonine because the acquisition of another starter was uncertain, and he’s a control guy with some Tigers experience (slim pickings on the farm), and Knapp opined that he liked him? Could Skelton have been left off because they think he really is a long shot to both make it and fit the plan (at whatever position), and didn’t exactly count on losing him but instead took a gamble that he would more likely be passed over than Figaro and any other prospects they protected? Or did they maybe intend to make Skelton part of a trade which never materialized? Those are my best guesses, based on what little I know.

]]> By: billfer http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109906 billfer Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:59:44 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109906 With regard to Lopez not being tendered and using his spot for Skelton, it's kind of apples and oranges. The Tigers are looking to upgrade that spot in the bullpen and will need the roster spot to do that. Lopez isn't who kept Skelton off the roster, it was the Hessman's and Bonine's that did. With regard to Lopez not being tendered and using his spot for Skelton, it’s kind of apples and oranges. The Tigers are looking to upgrade that spot in the bullpen and will need the roster spot to do that. Lopez isn’t who kept Skelton off the roster, it was the Hessman’s and Bonine’s that did.

]]> By: Smoking Loon http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109904 Smoking Loon Sun, 14 Dec 2008 19:36:45 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109904 "Unless they plan on trading Montero" Maybe to the Tigers? I don't know what the Tigers can offer in return (Edwin Jackson? ha ha), but a cheap (at least I assume he's still cheap). young, left-handed backup C isn't such a terrible idea otherwise. Montero/Ryan platoon in 2010? Letting go of Skelton might not seem so bad then. “Unless they plan on trading Montero”

Maybe to the Tigers? I don’t know what the Tigers can offer in return (Edwin Jackson? ha ha), but a cheap (at least I assume he’s still cheap). young, left-handed backup C isn’t such a terrible idea otherwise. Montero/Ryan platoon in 2010? Letting go of Skelton might not seem so bad then.

]]> By: Smoking Loon http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109903 Smoking Loon Sun, 14 Dec 2008 18:27:03 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109903 "What the heck are they doing? I don’t understand or like very many of their moves this off-season." Well, there's got to be a reason. There are people here and elsewhere very hip to the finer points of roster management, and I'm surprised that none of them have put forth any theories to make seemingly incomprehensible moves a little more understandable. But things like the Lopez thing or protecting Hessman, Clevlen, Bonine, et al, at the cost of letting Skelton go, well, they simply <i>cannot</i> be oversights or simply "asinine" (even if the results do turn out to be unfavorable). Baseball wizards like, well, you know who are, because you have your very own Tigers blogs, for goodness sake - YOUSE GUYS should have some ideas. I'm lookin' right at ya, now. Because if you smart people won't come up with any theories, it's left to stupid people like me. For instance: Well, I can't come up with anything original. I've encountered the idea that you might put guys on the 40-man roster that you don't intend to keep as a kind of placeholder for positions you expect or hope to fill with acquisitions, but I can't explain it and don't quite understand it. And of course the Tigers brain trust itself isn't about to explain anything about this to anybody, because it would give away strategy and hurt their trade and signing leverage. “What the heck are they doing? I don’t understand or like very many of their moves this off-season.”

Well, there’s got to be a reason. There are people here and elsewhere very hip to the finer points of roster management, and I’m surprised that none of them have put forth any theories to make seemingly incomprehensible moves a little more understandable. But things like the Lopez thing or protecting Hessman, Clevlen, Bonine, et al, at the cost of letting Skelton go, well, they simply cannot be oversights or simply “asinine” (even if the results do turn out to be unfavorable). Baseball wizards like, well, you know who are, because you have your very own Tigers blogs, for goodness sake – YOUSE GUYS should have some ideas. I’m lookin’ right at ya, now. Because if you smart people won’t come up with any theories, it’s left to stupid people like me.

For instance: Well, I can’t come up with anything original. I’ve encountered the idea that you might put guys on the 40-man roster that you don’t intend to keep as a kind of placeholder for positions you expect or hope to fill with acquisitions, but I can’t explain it and don’t quite understand it.

And of course the Tigers brain trust itself isn’t about to explain anything about this to anybody, because it would give away strategy and hurt their trade and signing leverage.

]]> By: Eric Cioe http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109899 Eric Cioe Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:51:35 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109899 Unless they plan on trading Montero, the lefty (they could), or using Skelton as a 2B. He'll likely be back but it's far from certain. Unless they plan on trading Montero, the lefty (they could), or using Skelton as a 2B. He’ll likely be back but it’s far from certain.

]]> By: Mr X http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109898 Mr X Sun, 14 Dec 2008 16:12:44 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109898 Skelton will surely be back though. He won't stick on the D'backs 25 MLB roster unless they want to carry 3 catchers. They already have Chris Snyder and Miguel Montero. I'm stunned that anyone would take a AA catcher in the rule 5 draft, let alone a team that already has 2 catchers. Skelton will surely be back though. He won’t stick on the D’backs 25 MLB roster unless they want to carry 3 catchers. They already have Chris Snyder and Miguel Montero. I’m stunned that anyone would take a AA catcher in the rule 5 draft, let alone a team that already has 2 catchers.

]]> By: Dave BW http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109890 Dave BW Sun, 14 Dec 2008 01:25:04 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109890 I couldn't care less about ALo being cut -- it's just incredibly asinine that he had to be placed on the 40-man at the expense of Skelton instead of dropped a month ago. I couldn’t care less about ALo being cut — it’s just incredibly asinine that he had to be placed on the 40-man at the expense of Skelton instead of dropped a month ago.

]]> By: Chris in Dallas http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109887 Chris in Dallas Sun, 14 Dec 2008 00:46:23 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109887 All due respect to Aquilino, but he's not a guy who is going to be a key to a contender's bullpen. That's if you're willing to say that the Tigers will be contenders. All due respect to Aquilino, but he’s not a guy who is going to be a key to a contender’s bullpen. That’s if you’re willing to say that the Tigers will be contenders.

]]> By: rings http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109886 rings Sat, 13 Dec 2008 23:58:40 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109886 I was just going to echo the news that Aquilino Lopez was non-tendered over $$...after he made $400k last year and was one of our few bullpen bright spots. Sheesh, if we can give Jose Mesa $2m, we can keep this guy around, can't we? What the heck are they doing? I don't understand or like very many of their moves this off-season. I was just going to echo the news that Aquilino Lopez was non-tendered over $$…after he made $400k last year and was one of our few bullpen bright spots. Sheesh, if we can give Jose Mesa $2m, we can keep this guy around, can’t we?
What the heck are they doing?
I don’t understand or like very many of their moves this off-season.

]]> By: Mike F http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109883 Mike F Sat, 13 Dec 2008 21:57:50 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109883 I haven't seen any projection data yet, so until we see the Marcels her is last season's Win Share Data from the <a href="http://www.hardballtimes.com/main" rel="nofollow">Hardball Times</a> Edwin Jackson Batting Pitching Fielding WSP WSAB Total WS -0.1 10.5 0.0 .523 5 10 Matt Joyce 5.8 0.0 0.8 .458 2 7 As it stands, using win share data, it seems a trade for average and average, but from a position of some depth for a position of some weakness. I haven’t seen any projection data yet, so until we see the Marcels her is last season’s Win Share Data from the Hardball Times

Edwin Jackson
Batting Pitching Fielding WSP WSAB Total WS
-0.1 10.5 0.0 .523 5 10

Matt Joyce
5.8 0.0 0.8 .458 2 7

As it stands, using win share data, it seems a trade for average and average, but from a position of some depth for a position of some weakness.

]]> By: Smoking Loon http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/winter-meetings-with-a-bang-my-head-against-the-wall/#comment-109881 Smoking Loon Sat, 13 Dec 2008 19:02:04 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3682#comment-109881 Ken, I do feel retarded, and yet I feel no shame. Serenity Now conquers all. I didn't research James heavily, always a recipe for instant retardation. I saw the numbers, guessed that he was injured in 2008, noted he was a lefty, looked at the numbers again and said "yeah." Offhand like. Steve in Kzoo then put me on to the fact that Dave BW might have been joking, and I felt stupid. Ken, I do feel retarded, and yet I feel no shame. Serenity Now conquers all.

I didn’t research James heavily, always a recipe for instant retardation. I saw the numbers, guessed that he was injured in 2008, noted he was a lefty, looked at the numbers again and said “yeah.” Offhand like. Steve in Kzoo then put me on to the fact that Dave BW might have been joking, and I felt stupid.

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