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	<title>Comments on: Tigers 2009 WAR Projections &#8211; Pitchers</title>
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	<description>News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball</description>
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		<title>By: jud</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110327</link>
		<dc:creator>jud</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Jan 2009 08:17:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110327</guid>
		<description>if he he has 501 can we retire him NOW</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>if he he has 501 can we retire him NOW</p>
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		<title>By: Chris in Dallas</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110309</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris in Dallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Jan 2009 00:51:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110309</guid>
		<description>A bit off topic, but since I read Gary Sheffield&#039;s name it brought it to mind.  I was fooling around on retrosheet and looking at &quot;lost&quot; home runs (i.e. HR that didn&#039;t count for whatever reason - rain outs, missing bases, Bengie Molina), and Sheffield actually has 2 lost HR.  He should be at 501.  Anyhoo, that&#039;s it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit off topic, but since I read Gary Sheffield&#8217;s name it brought it to mind.  I was fooling around on retrosheet and looking at &#8220;lost&#8221; home runs (i.e. HR that didn&#8217;t count for whatever reason &#8211; rain outs, missing bases, Bengie Molina), and Sheffield actually has 2 lost HR.  He should be at 501.  Anyhoo, that&#8217;s it.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick G</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110298</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:47:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110298</guid>
		<description>Billfer, good points.  I guess I&#039;m reading &quot;replacement&quot; player and thinking &quot;average&quot; player, which I know is wrong.  Replacement guys should be considered the hypothetical AAAA guy you refer to.

I love all these projections, but there aren&#039;t any numbers to quantify whether the guys in the dugout believe they can win every day, or pack it in at the first sign of trouble.  

It sure seems like it&#039;s been a long time since the Tigers have played anywhere near their projected level, so it&#039;s hard for me to see it happening this year.  You never know, though, they could get on a roll early on and challenge for the division like they did in 2006 or the first half of 2007.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Billfer, good points.  I guess I&#8217;m reading &#8220;replacement&#8221; player and thinking &#8220;average&#8221; player, which I know is wrong.  Replacement guys should be considered the hypothetical AAAA guy you refer to.</p>
<p>I love all these projections, but there aren&#8217;t any numbers to quantify whether the guys in the dugout believe they can win every day, or pack it in at the first sign of trouble.  </p>
<p>It sure seems like it&#8217;s been a long time since the Tigers have played anywhere near their projected level, so it&#8217;s hard for me to see it happening this year.  You never know, though, they could get on a roll early on and challenge for the division like they did in 2006 or the first half of 2007.</p>
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		<title>By: billfer</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110297</link>
		<dc:creator>billfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 14:01:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110297</guid>
		<description>Rick -

Bonderman I&#039;ll give you. But if you look at what I penciled in for everyone else, it ain&#039;t that good. In fact for the 400 bullpen innings I&#039;m essentially expecting AAAA performance at this point. I think they&#039;d be hard pressed to underperform my projections. For the 5th starter spot it&#039;s not a whole lot better. And if you look at what I have for Galarraga, I have him with a fairly high ERA because he likely will regress.

As for the aging of Guillen and Ordonez, that is certainly possible. Ordonez wouldn&#039;t have that represented yet in projections because he has still been quite productive. Guillen&#039;s power numbers did fall last year and so that would be somewhat reflected. Sheffield&#039;s projection isn&#039;t that good to begin with.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick -</p>
<p>Bonderman I&#8217;ll give you. But if you look at what I penciled in for everyone else, it ain&#8217;t that good. In fact for the 400 bullpen innings I&#8217;m essentially expecting AAAA performance at this point. I think they&#8217;d be hard pressed to underperform my projections. For the 5th starter spot it&#8217;s not a whole lot better. And if you look at what I have for Galarraga, I have him with a fairly high ERA because he likely will regress.</p>
<p>As for the aging of Guillen and Ordonez, that is certainly possible. Ordonez wouldn&#8217;t have that represented yet in projections because he has still been quite productive. Guillen&#8217;s power numbers did fall last year and so that would be somewhat reflected. Sheffield&#8217;s projection isn&#8217;t that good to begin with.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick G</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110294</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 00:21:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110294</guid>
		<description>Billfer, here are my concerns and why I&#039;m so pessimistic:

   1)  The WAR projection for our pitching staff assigns 760 innings to the combination of &quot;everyone else,&quot; &quot;starter number 5,&quot; and &quot;Jeremy Bonderman&quot;  That&#039;s over half the total innings for the season.
   2)  I expect Galarraga to have a severe dropoff in 2009.  Love the kid, but I&#039;m afraid 2008 was a fluke.
   3)  I think we&#039;re overcompensating for last year&#039;s defensive weaknesses at the C/SS/3B positions.  The bottom third of the batting order scares me more than last year&#039;s bad defense.
   4)  I&#039;m afraid that age has caught up with Sheffield, and is quickly gaining on Magglio and Carlos.  Corner outfielders and DH&#039;s need to have more power than they&#039;ve shown lately.

I&#039;m not saying you&#039;ve done anything outlandish with the numbers, but I still don&#039;t believe them.  As a point of curiosity, I wonder what our WAR projection would have been for 2008?  A lot closer to 95 wins than 70 I&#039;d guess.

I hope I&#039;m wrong and our pitching staff is solid again, Battlestar has another good year, we get average offense from the bottom three, and our aging stars are currently swimming in the fountain of youth.  But it&#039;s hard to have watched the 2008 team and the moves so far this offseason and come up with good reasons why the team will be any better in 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Billfer, here are my concerns and why I&#8217;m so pessimistic:</p>
<p>   1)  The WAR projection for our pitching staff assigns 760 innings to the combination of &#8220;everyone else,&#8221; &#8220;starter number 5,&#8221; and &#8220;Jeremy Bonderman&#8221;  That&#8217;s over half the total innings for the season.<br />
   2)  I expect Galarraga to have a severe dropoff in 2009.  Love the kid, but I&#8217;m afraid 2008 was a fluke.<br />
   3)  I think we&#8217;re overcompensating for last year&#8217;s defensive weaknesses at the C/SS/3B positions.  The bottom third of the batting order scares me more than last year&#8217;s bad defense.<br />
   4)  I&#8217;m afraid that age has caught up with Sheffield, and is quickly gaining on Magglio and Carlos.  Corner outfielders and DH&#8217;s need to have more power than they&#8217;ve shown lately.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not saying you&#8217;ve done anything outlandish with the numbers, but I still don&#8217;t believe them.  As a point of curiosity, I wonder what our WAR projection would have been for 2008?  A lot closer to 95 wins than 70 I&#8217;d guess.</p>
<p>I hope I&#8217;m wrong and our pitching staff is solid again, Battlestar has another good year, we get average offense from the bottom three, and our aging stars are currently swimming in the fountain of youth.  But it&#8217;s hard to have watched the 2008 team and the moves so far this offseason and come up with good reasons why the team will be any better in 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris in Dallas</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110292</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris in Dallas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 01 Jan 2009 00:00:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110292</guid>
		<description>84 is a good starting point.  With a little luck, you can get to 90.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>84 is a good starting point.  With a little luck, you can get to 90.</p>
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		<title>By: Mr X</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110291</link>
		<dc:creator>Mr X</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:28:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110291</guid>
		<description>If guys like Nate, Willis, and Verlander bounce back to their career norms, this staff will actually look much better than last season.   I don&#039;t think any of the 3 were significantly injured, they just had very extreme brutal years in the very least.  Also getting rid of Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones makes the staff younger and better.   Edwin Jackson could be a decent filler pitcher too.   It will be interesting what a healthy Tigers pitching staff can do.  

My new years wish is that Rodney, Zumaya, and Bonderman stay healthy and that Robertson, Willis, and Verlander bounce back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If guys like Nate, Willis, and Verlander bounce back to their career norms, this staff will actually look much better than last season.   I don&#8217;t think any of the 3 were significantly injured, they just had very extreme brutal years in the very least.  Also getting rid of Kenny Rogers and Todd Jones makes the staff younger and better.   Edwin Jackson could be a decent filler pitcher too.   It will be interesting what a healthy Tigers pitching staff can do.  </p>
<p>My new years wish is that Rodney, Zumaya, and Bonderman stay healthy and that Robertson, Willis, and Verlander bounce back.</p>
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		<title>By: Slashpyne</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110290</link>
		<dc:creator>Slashpyne</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 23:03:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110290</guid>
		<description>84 feels about right with the current roster...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>84 feels about right with the current roster&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: billfer</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110285</link>
		<dc:creator>billfer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:54:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110285</guid>
		<description>Rick -

What about the method makes it seem like a best case scenario? Aside from health, which is a biggie, I didn&#039;t fudge any projections to make things seem better or optimistic.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick -</p>
<p>What about the method makes it seem like a best case scenario? Aside from health, which is a biggie, I didn&#8217;t fudge any projections to make things seem better or optimistic.</p>
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		<title>By: Rick G</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110273</link>
		<dc:creator>Rick G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 21:53:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110273</guid>
		<description>The Angels have signed Fuentes &lt;a href=&quot;http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9012920/Angels-land-Fuentes-with-two-year,-$17.5M-deal&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; here&#039;s the link&lt;/a&gt;

By the way, to me 84 wins looks like absolute best case scenario.  We&#039;ll be sellers at the trade deadline if we have any takers for Magglio and (shudder) Carlos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Angels have signed Fuentes <a href="http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/9012920/Angels-land-Fuentes-with-two-year,-$17.5M-deal" rel="nofollow"> here&#8217;s the link</a></p>
<p>By the way, to me 84 wins looks like absolute best case scenario.  We&#8217;ll be sellers at the trade deadline if we have any takers for Magglio and (shudder) Carlos.</p>
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		<title>By: Vince in MN</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110271</link>
		<dc:creator>Vince in MN</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110271</guid>
		<description>WPA= 84 wins is about what I expected. 

I have a hard time getting my brain around the idea that if they are not buying now, why would they overpay at the end of July. It looks to me that if what we have now is the basic team the Tigers take out of ST, they are going to need a very fortuitous combination of good luck (e.g., MN, CHI and CLE having a load of bad luck), good health and key players taking the next step up or even having career years, to finish first. 

Chances seem greater that they will be sellers, but if that is the case it may not be such a bad thing. A good house cleaning (along with some of those bloated salaries) would allow some of those &quot;replacemant players&quot; to show their stuff, re-stock the farm system and bring the Leyland era to its merciful end. The extra cash would allow them to deal on next year&#039;s free agent market at a higher level than Everett/Laird level that they have been restricted to this year. 2010 could actually be pretty exciting. 

Hopefully they can get it done and we will be looking at some meaningful games in August and beyond, but I would hate to see them buy into the false hope business at the end of July and end up gutting the farm system some more just to add a couple of short term rentals. As much as I would like to believe that these guys can take it all the way, I really don&#039;t see a championship caliber team there. I would be ecstatic if they would prove me wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>WPA= 84 wins is about what I expected. </p>
<p>I have a hard time getting my brain around the idea that if they are not buying now, why would they overpay at the end of July. It looks to me that if what we have now is the basic team the Tigers take out of ST, they are going to need a very fortuitous combination of good luck (e.g., MN, CHI and CLE having a load of bad luck), good health and key players taking the next step up or even having career years, to finish first. </p>
<p>Chances seem greater that they will be sellers, but if that is the case it may not be such a bad thing. A good house cleaning (along with some of those bloated salaries) would allow some of those &#8220;replacemant players&#8221; to show their stuff, re-stock the farm system and bring the Leyland era to its merciful end. The extra cash would allow them to deal on next year&#8217;s free agent market at a higher level than Everett/Laird level that they have been restricted to this year. 2010 could actually be pretty exciting. </p>
<p>Hopefully they can get it done and we will be looking at some meaningful games in August and beyond, but I would hate to see them buy into the false hope business at the end of July and end up gutting the farm system some more just to add a couple of short term rentals. As much as I would like to believe that these guys can take it all the way, I really don&#8217;t see a championship caliber team there. I would be ecstatic if they would prove me wrong.</p>
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		<title>By: Barry</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/12/tigers-2009-war-projections-pitchers/#comment-110269</link>
		<dc:creator>Barry</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 15:42:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/?p=3720#comment-110269</guid>
		<description>I would take 84 wins, trading deadline will be exciting for the Tigers this year. Hopefully they will be buyers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I would take 84 wins, trading deadline will be exciting for the Tigers this year. Hopefully they will be buyers.</p>
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