‘It’s a mistake to think that your tools are smarter than you are’ – Baseball Prospectus

But thanks for the link, it will be interesting nonetheless to see the fans take on things.

Who would you like to see at SS? I heard some good things about Danny Worth back in 2007, but haven’t heard much lately. His offensive stats last year are nothing to get excited about, but, supposedly he plays good D, though I’ve never seen him play.

http://tangotiger.net/scouting.....s2008.html

That is Tangotiger, Billfer linked us there a few years ago
Basically its scouting by the fans for the fans, you submit how good you think a player is defensively, and Tango averages all of them to find how good players are at different categories (ie throwing strength or speed etc.) check it out if you like, its a pretty useful and pretty accurate tool when evaluating a player IMO, and worlds above most commonly produced defensive metrics (ie Fielding%/ Errors/Assists/Putouts even Range Factor etc.)

Yea, I’m for signing someone on the cheap who’s a defensive whiz and using the money elsewhere and let Santiago back up 3rd SS and 2nd

I disagree with your next to last point. IMO he was bound to get signed if we gave him arbitration and he rejected the $$, he’s somewhat established, and some GMs (not saying that they are smart) would gamble on him and guess that he just had a “off year” and would “bounce back”

I’m in agreement with you, ——–I didn’t want him back on the team. LOL at your last 2 sentences.

But lets forget Neifi since you don’t like him, he’s not important. I’d rather roll with Santiago then. Or, if you don’t like Ramon, I’ll take any lackey in the minors. Let’s see what they can do.

I don’t think anyone was going to sign Edgar if we offered arbitration and the Tigers knew it and thus they’d be stuck overpaying for him.

I don’t hate the guy, but I am glad he’s not on the team. Just too many times going to Comerica, Edgar made me think I was watching the Bad News Bears rather than a professional baseball team. That’s not the experience I look for at the ballpark.

Again I’ll site tango

Neifi 2007 44
Rentaria 2008 35

Both are below average, both were bad fielders, neither was great or even good or even above average or even average

Neifi was bad Rentaria was worse

Plus(including the 7mil difference) you forgot what we gave up for Rentaria

Still IMO as a player I’d have him 10x out of 10 over Neifi just for the fact that he can hit once in awhile

I’m no fan of either

Keep in mind we’re talking defense only, and by that standard, Renteria was significantly worse than Neifi in my opinion.

When the total package, including offense is considered, I didn’t say Renteria was worse, just that I’d rather pay any schmuck the minimum, or an all field/no hit guy a million or 2(ie Neifi), than pay Renteria (gulp) $9 million.

I’m glad he’s gone. Put Santiago in there….or anyone.

If the two teams had wanted to swap players they probably could have signed them and then traded them.

As for Renteria signing so quickly, that was probably facilitated by the fact that the Tigers didn’t offer arbitration. Now I’m on the side that says he should have been offered, but it’s a different environment once a team doesn’t have to give up a draft pick.

IMO Rentaria as bad as he was, he wasn’t much worse than Neifi

I’m not defending him too much, your comments just seemed over the top

He sucked, but wasn’t Neifi or Sheffield suck level overall

And he def. DID NOT MAKE NEIFI LOOK LIKE OZZIE SMITH, LOL!

at the end of the day, the San Diego GM and DD (from your example) can agree not to offer arbitration to specific players, but once they do that, they have no way to stop either guy from signing with, say, the Giants or Royals. but the charge of collusion could still be made if the player’s union could argue that one of the players SHOULD haev been offered arbitration, and were not in an effort to keep said player’s salary lower. how they would prove this, i have no idea. but, it’s a labor monopoly, so they can pretty much do what they want.

Good thoughts all, Mark. I don’t know what evidence the players union would have, though. All they would have is appearance and suspicion of collusion. I would guess that baseball is full of all shades and degrees of collusion on all sides.

If we pretend that the Padres need a SS like Renteria, and suppose that the Tigers end up with Hoffman and San Diego with Edgar, it might look like collusion, and it might be collusion, but I don’t know who the injured parties would be. Well, the Padres pitching staff, of course (it’s a joke).

in my mind, collusion is simply the act of two parties secretly behaving in a coordinated fashion for their own benefit and to the detriment of a third party (or parties). no handshake, etc. required.

as for your question, i would suppose you could ask DD if he’s planning on offering arb to a certain player, and there’s probably no law/rule from him answering you (truthfully or otherwise). I am no lawyer, but I would guess that at some point (perhaps the point where DD asks YOU if you’re planning to offer arb to one of your players as well) you reach a level where a reasonable person can deduce that DD either knows or should have known that such discussions are tantamount to collusion. thus, my guess is the players union takes that evidence to court and files suit with it.

these are just my thoughts, i really don’t know. i’m pretty certain that any type of quid pro quo between teams regarding the contract of a player is playing with fire. remember, this is a union that is complaining about baseball owners freezing out barry bonds by “agreeing” not to offer him a contract. needless to say, they have a high sensitivity to this sort of thing.

“Loon, I think that falls under the ‘collusion’ category”

Yes, that’s what I suspected. But would it still be collusion if there was no agreement on anything, no handshake? If I’m another GM and I ask DD point blank whether he plans on offering Renteria arbitration, is he prohibited from answering me? I’m not suggesting there are many realistic scenarios where it makes sense to ask or answer such a question, but still.

Edgar has a way of making the routine play look difficult, and the slightly difficult, impossible.

I don’t get how extended viewing of Renteria’s defense doesn’t cause at least mild nausea.

At least with Neifi I got to see some phenomenal things in the field from time to time, with Renteria, with the glove, the routine play is all you’ll EVER get, and that’s if you’re lucky. At the plate, Edgar GIDP 19 times, but it seemed like 90.

Loon, I think that falls under the ‘collusion’ category, and if the player’s union even got a whiff that something like that was going on, there would be lawsuits to high heaven. I’m not saying it doesn’t happen, but I’d be surprised if it did in any consistent, meaningful sense.

Mike R, you said it. Suddenly Neifi is a more reasonable option than Renteria? I don’t get that either….