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BA looks at the best lefty/righty combo's in the minors. Casey Crosby and Rick Porcello put the Tigers on the list at 10.
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Six of the top seven Tigers in FIP+ were bullpen pitchers (and one was Jason Grilli). And the bullpen was pretty bad. Yeah, it wasn't a good season.
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This is a couple days old now, but Rogers hasn't decided if he's retiring. I'm very thankful for what Kenny did in 2006. But 2008 was awful and I can't see a role for him on the 2009 edition. And don't say pitching coach. He got a lot of credit for that stuff in 06, but he wasn't able to help in that regard at all in 2008 – much like Chuck Hernandez.
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For those wondering about how much big league service time Tigers have accrued. It is listed as x.yyy where x is the number of years and .yyy is the fractional part of the year expressed as the number of days. So 7.109 would mean 7 years and 109 days (there are 180 days in a big league season).
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Beck spoke with Renteria's agent and the Tigers haven't had any additional contact. Renteria is looking towards pointing himself in a different direction.
38 thoughts on “links for 2008-10-29”
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Ranked Prospects – yay
FIP+ – lets trade Porcello for Grilli!
Kenny – NO NO NO, let Knappy do this thang, maybe he(Rogers) could convert into their backup SS with all the dives and flips, its been done=P
Tigers Service Time – WOW I just realized no one on the Tigers roster is under my height (5’11), must be teh ROIDS
Could you imagine Cabrera on Roids? He’d be one BIG dude.
Beck’s Blog – good, don’t let teh door hit ya on ya way out Edgah
cya rent a re yaaaaaaaaaaaa
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A7oZKNvxg4s
The dead Phillie great Grover Cleveland Alexander is with his epilepsy pushing them towards greatness
Go Phils
don’t mess with Grover or he’ll whoppa you BIG TIME
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wNMwRH5UGYY&feature=related
better mascot than the Phanatic (wt… is that? it certainly isn’t a chicken)
I personally don’t like seeing Rentaria Walk in FA. I think the Tigers should, at the very least, offer him ARB (if they can). He hit well in the 2nd half and we will need the offense if Ryan is at C and Inge is at 3B.
Not to mention, seeing JJ and Gorkys go to ATL for one year of Renteria KILLS me.
Really quick, it’s actually out of 172 days in a season. There are as many as 183 days, but days 173-182 aren’t counted if you are over 172 days.
“Not to mention, seeing JJ and Gorkys go to ATL for one year of Renteria KILLS me.”
It’s better than two years, isn’t it? Damage done, lesson learned, move on.
Loon,
I don’t think so – because Renteria seemed to turn a corner the second half of the season. Maybe it is just my perception, but I just don’t feel that this team can carry a “defense first” SS while having Inge at 3B and Ryan (or whomever) at C. While I know that D is important to the game, I put a tough more value in the ability of a player to put runs on teh board rather than keep them off.
Also, I just don’t see any SS out there who is an improvement over 2nd half Renteria (outside of Furcal – who I think is staying in the NL).
Regarding the FIP+ link, I think we should trade for Tony Pena Jr. His FIP+ was an astonishing 382. That’s unbelievable.
Also, in my opinion we can absolutely carry a defense-oriented shortstop (and catcher too, for that matter). The Phillies are about to win the World Series with Pedro Feliz (OPS+ of 80) and Carlos Ruiz (OPS+ of 61) getting 750 ABs combined. The reason is their pitching and the obvious fact they have Utley, Rollins, Howard, Burrell, etc. The Rays have Jason Bartlett (OPS+ of 85) and Akinori Iwamura (OPS+ of 96, which actually isn’t bad for a leadoff hitter) in their lineup every day.
We have a very good middle of the order with Maggs, Cabrera, Sheff (if healthy), Guillen (also if healthy) and potentially Granderson if they can land a leadoff hitter/SS. That’s more than enough to get it done offensively. Even assuming Inge pukes up another 75 or so OPS+, it’s not the end of the world if you’re getting value from him in other ways, i.e. defense. Getting the right guys at SS and C could (stress could) make the pitching better via the defense behind it, and if you can get a guy that can allow you to do other things like hit and run, the offense can still be plenty good (perhaps even more consistent) and the team could be good enough to contend.
I have no idea who those “right guys” are, but nobody is trading us Hanley Ramirez or Geovany Soto, so you might as well find somebody that can help you in different ways, defense included.
Yeah. What Mark said.
Tigercub33, I don’t deny that Renteria had a better 2nd half. I just sincerely believe the team will be better off without him, whether the new SS is Ramon Santiago, Orlando Cabrera, Adam Everett, or Cale Iorg. It might sound like Edgar-hate, but it’s not. I’m sure he’ll have a decent year at the plate in 2009, perhaps a very good year if he returns to the NL. The Tigers absolutely need better D at SS, foremost, and a more consistent consistency of consistence at the plate, by joe Morgan, if they can only get it.
“Renteria is looking towards pointing himself in a different direction.”
That’s interesting. How is this done? Is Edgar actually looking in that same direction, or is it off to his side or behind him, like he’s trying to fool us? Are there mirrors involved? Is it true that he is in a supine or prone position, as implied?
That sentence could have been improved immeasurably by inserting “at this point in time” and “going forward.” 🙂
Pick up Pena for setup duties and make Inge the closer (he can shift there from third base/catcher in the ninth inning). That’s, like, ten more wins right there.
SL:
Renteria is not quite yet ready to point in a different direction. He’s still considering it.
Loon,
Wasn’t there someone on the Tigers squad that Orlando Cabrera didn’t get along with (maybe it was Renteria)? I know that defense is important, and it probably would have helped our pitchers out last year, but I feel that some mebers will continue to regress (Polanco, Mags, Guillen especially).
I just hope whomever they bring in, it is NOT David Eckstein…
“Renteria is not quite yet ready to point in a different direction. He’s still considering it.”
Why oh why must you all confuse me so? Would someone please tell Renteria’s coordinates and orientation in space? Is he currently pointing, and by what means shall we tell this pointing? Hand, fingers? His gaze? His toes? Head relative to feet, or feet relative to head? It could be that the more we know about his momentum, the less we know about his precise location. He’s a slippery fellow. this subatomic SS. For all we know, he could just blink out of existence, like a virtual photon.
Tigercub33, in terms of the past 3 seasons, I don’t see a clear pattern of regression with Polanco or Ordonez. Guillen, maybe, but all the injuries cloud and confuse that picture. Regression in 2009 seems to be expected of all, but then again, no one quite saw those 2007 numbers that Polanco and Ordonez put up coming, either.
Ordonez’s aggregate numbers in 2008 were dragged down by his DL stint, but as I see it, he’s been rock solid 3 years running. Expecting regression from him seems to be saying “but it can’t last.” Maybe it can.
Loon, what are you smoking?
I pointing towards negative regression in 2009.
Going back to Mr. Rogers….
I posited in a comment a few weeks back that the proper place for Kenny was in the bullpen in 2009. He had a much stronger first half than second half, and his game has never been about “stuff”, but about knowledge and location. In fact, go back and look at his May/June numbers.
That suggests to me that perhaps he can’t be counted on for 200 innings, or even 150. But expecting 80-90 as a bullpen arm with spot-start capability — I would think that was a real steal for a couple million bucks.
“While I know that D is important to the game, I put a tough more value in the ability of a player to put runs on teh board rather than keep them off.”
Tigercub,
On the issue of offense vs defense, consider this:
Tigers
#5 in runs scored (821)
#27 in runs allowed (857)
#5 in errors committed (113)
#25 in fielding % (.981)
Tampa
#13 in runs scored (774)
#3 in runs allowed (671)
#23 in errors committed (90)
#10 in fielding % (.985)
I’m not pretending that a player’s offensive numbers are independent of the team and how it will perform, or that the Tigers and Tampa similarly constructed…but I think its safe to say that the Tigers could chose to sacrifice some offense at SS for the sake of improving the defense, and that this would yield a net gain.
It seems to me that there aren’t all that many impressive offensive SS around (even less available), so its easier in this case to look at the position, how critical good defense is there, and say “ok, we might not score as much, but the other guy will score even less”.
As some others have mentioned, even with Inge @ 3B and Dusty @ C, there’s some offense in this lineup…and imho enough to ‘carry’ a defensive SS. I can only hope that the team won’t endure an ’09 to make Murphy proud, which would likely mean less freak injuries, better overall pitching, and a couple hitters returning (even if just a little) to something closer to career norms.
The other thing to consider beyond all this is that ’08 wasn’t as bad as it was because of the SS situation. I don’t know to what extent Renteria’s lack of early offense, combined with his declining defense, had to do with the year…but if I had to guess, ’09 won’t be determined by the SS (but i still want a good glove there!).
jim-mt, I’m smoking tobacco, of course. If you think my posts are weird now, imagine what might happen if I smoked anything else.
“I pointing towards negative regression in 2009.”
But are you really pointing, or only considering moving toward considering a move toward negative regression, and also, were you either considering pointing to or actually pointing to negative regression to begin with?
Speaking of points, I think Renteria is a moot one now.
I align myself with the “Chicago School” (Andre and Mark). I think a lot of people are greatly exaggerating the dangers of any potential offense-for-defense swap*. The Tigers already have 6 hitters who, as a unit, could carry any team in baseball that had pitching anywhere above awful.
* And it’s not even a “swap” to begin with! 2008 – offense at 3B? Not so great. Offense at SS? Not so great. Offense at C? Lousy.
“expecting 80-90 as a bullpen arm with spot-start capability [Rogers]”
Intriguing as always, scotsw. But as GM under the prevailing circumstances, I wouldn’t do it. There are just waaaay too many ????? and what-ifs with the staff already.
scotsw, Rogers in the pen is an interesting idea, I wonder if both parties would go for it. I would guess he’d be used as a long reliever, as opposed to a LOOGY/situational guy. Is it worth it to spend $4-5 million on that guy when you can probably find a comparable minor leaguer?
Have we looked at upgrading the quality of ham in our dugout for this upcoming season? Most notably for the sandwiches that were such a talking point this season?
Clearly our current supplier’s quality was not up to par and seemed to effect the overall morale and focus of our ballplayers. If we have to sacrifice a little in payroll to upgrade our ham to the “HoneyBaked” name brand variety, I am all for it. They have this maple, brown sugar, crust thing going that makes all the difference.
On a less serious note, I think we give Kenny another year to show off his left arm that is apparently “The strongest it’s been in years.” He can always be demoted. I also would like to retain Renteria if at all possible, simply because he is our best offensive option and his defense has been over scrutinized at this point. 2nd half Edgar may just be figuring out AL pitching. Some people just have a longer learning curve than others. It took me several years to understand what the hell Smoking Loon and Coleman were saying, for instance. I know now that it’s really all about the time/space continuum. –Challenge of the day– Find any other word in time and/or space that has two consecutive u’s.
vacuum
😀
(No looking it up, I swear. Just a piece of useless knowledge rattling around upstairs that turned out to be useful.)
KILV: “Find any other word in time and/or space that has two consecutive u’s.”
puu-puu
Tigers just re-hired the bullpen coach. Can you say ‘awkward’?
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20081030/SPORTS0104/810300448/1129
Correct, Mark. Your prize? No….not a ham sandwich. Why would you think that? That’s just stupid. Your prize is a Puu-puu platter.
scottsw and M.I.C: “scotsw, Rogers in the pen is an interesting idea, I wonder if both parties would go for it. I would guess he’d be used as a long reliever, as opposed to a LOOGY/situational guy.”
Well, Kenny does have more career saves than Farnsworth. I’m just saying….
I think Kenny may be able to be effective out of the bullpen.
-Sam
Mark in Chicago sez:
“Rogers in the pen is an interesting idea, I wonder if both parties would go for it… Is it worth it to spend $4-5 million on that guy when you can probably find a comparable minor leaguer?”
There are no comparable minor leaguers. Kenny went scoreless in 3 starts in the the 2006 playoffs. He’s pitched a perfect game. He knows more strategy and the tendencies of more hitters than anyone else on the roster. You get that experience, too, for your $4-5 million.
I look at it as a case of turning lemons into lemonade:
Tiger problem #1: Shortage of bullpen arms
Tiger problem #2: Can’t trust Kenny to start in ’09. But he was very good in May and GREAT in June of ’08…
Hmmm….
It is waaaay too easy to forget that Kenny Rogers was an ABOVE AVERAGE major-league starter in the first half of 2008. He went downhill after the All-Star break, apparently in part due to injury. Nobody wants to trust a mid-40s starter in 2009, and after Kenny’s ’08 finish, I can’t blame them. BUT… I can’t imagine why you don’t bring him out for Spring Training under an incentive-laden contract and hope for the best.
ok, scotsw, you have me convinced it’s worth a shot to at least explore that option.
my fear is that jimmuh thinks kenny is the second coming of todd jones (which he may be) and decides to run him out there as his closer. i’m not sure i’m comfortable with that.
Rogers is NOT a bullpen type pitcher. We just had a Rogers type pitcher named Jones retire as the Tigers closer. Same pitcher….he is a starting pitcher for you or he is the next to retire…one or the other
the Tigers re-hired Jeff Jones and then recommended to the Lions that they re-hire Matt Millen
bilfer,
come on, re-hiring J Jones is a little awkward…
its like breaking up with a girl, saying “i still wanna be friends and hang out all the time”, realizing there’s nothing better around and asking her back out.
at least this is how my brain works.
“re-hiring J Jones is a little awkward’
Andre, to me it’s more like getting divorced and then, after allowing for a “grace period,” telling your ex-wife’s best friend (that you were also friends with) there’s really no reason you two can’t still be friends… and maybe more. Not awkward if she likes you. Jeff Jones obviously likes the Tigers, and I doubt that Chuck’s feelings are too hurt by this. So it’s all good. I guess.
Not that I would consider hiring any of my ex-wife’s girlfriends as my bullpen coach.
“two consecutive u’s”
Cluuless has two consecutive “u”s. Right?
Loon,
well, you are partially correct about ‘cluuless’, but not for the reason that you think… 😉
haha, only joking!
You’re so cruul, Mark.