2008 Season, Game Post

Game 68: Dodgers at Tigers

295 Comments

PREGAME: Yet another Fox Saturday game, and yet another afternoon spent with Eric Karros. The Tigers managed to win last Saturday on national-ish TV (only 12% of the nation gets this one), so hopefully that “bright spotlights” thing is in the past.

Did you know the Tigers have played .500 ball for the last 60 games? I’m just sayin’

Today it will be Brad Penny and the major league debut of Eddie Bonine. Penny’s fastball has been getting hit with regularity this year. And according to Rod Allen the Tigers are a fastball hitting team so that could bode well.

One guy who hopes for the good boding is Mr. Bonine. Bonine is a control pitcher with only 24 walks all of last year and 14 so far this year. It sounds like he is quite the prankster. He also may be the first minor league Rule 5 pick the Tigers have had make the big league roster.

LAD @ DET, Saturday, June 14, 2008 Game Preview – Baseball-Reference.com

Game Time 3:55

POSTGAME: The Tigers have assured themselves of a at least a 7-3 homestand which is definitely something to be happy about. If they manage to win tomorrow and pick up back to back sweeps it would have to be deemed a stunning success. But let’s not get ahead of ourselves, the Tigers did play a game today.

  • Eddie Bonine got hit around, but not hit hard for the most part. Russell Martin had a blast to center and Andre Eithier tagged his homer, but outside of another single or two the hits were bleeders and bloops. And he didn’t walk anybody which is fun for everyone. Definitely worth another look.
  • The defense wasn’t quite as good as it’s been. Pudge airmailed a throw to second and Cabrera and Bonine both botched routine grounders. But everything seemed to be a step away. I’m not saying guys were slow or out of position, I think it was just the way things went down. Maggs and Marcus both layed out for balls and came up empty and Renteria couldn’t quite convert an up the middle ball leading to a run.
  • The offense was pretty darn good. Marcus Thames has hit 3 homers on this homestand that have put the team ahead or tied the score. Miguel Cabrera is finding his groove. Even slumping players like Granderson and Pudge and Larish managed multiple hits.
  • The one guy that didn’t hit was Carlos Guillen. You can’t help but wonder if it is the effects of his injury Friday night.
  • Three times in this series the Tigers have had a runner hung up between 3rd and home and only once have the Dodgers executed. That’s some good luck for the Tigers.
  • The White Sox just lost. That’s good. And the Indians just went down 5 runs to the Padres in the top of the 10th. That’s good too. So the Tigers at least gained some ground today.

295 thoughts on “Game 68: Dodgers at Tigers”

  2. I wish you hadn’t quoted that, because I’m not sure it’s true. I guess it’s time to check our minor league rule 5ers.

  3. Joe Beimel is the most boring speaker alive

    Bonine k’s Pierre, the first hitter he’s faced in MLB

  5. Eddie “Strikes” Bonine turns a DP to end the inning, allowing Cabrera to feel slightly less stupid

  6. Yeah, running out of time while putting up a blog post and forgetting to go back and fact check has it’s problems. Buddy Groom and Jose Macias were also minor league rule 5 picks.

  7. Will Larish ever get to play 1B before he is sent down, or does he just get to sit between at-bats and worry about his hitting?

  8. I really want Miggy to get decent at 1st but he is still a defensive work in progress. Nice job by Bonine not letting that one rattling him.

    The Dodgers offense is looking a lot like the bad ’08 Tigers right now.

  11. Bonine looks to be a groundball-type pitcher (1.75 GO/AO). That could be good or bad depending on who the ball is hit to. Speaking of “Bad”, that isn’t Penny’s nickname, I suppose.

  13. Apparently, Russell Martin is a “glittering diamond” in the Dodgers system. Indeed, his fielder’s choice absolutely sparkled like the sun.

    LA scores on a JUST BARELY single to short. Comerica is booing Renteria’s effort, but there wasn’t really anything he could do better.

    Now Pudge throws a CS attempt to center field for some reason, sending Kemp to third.

  15. From what I can tell, the Tigers’ infield is trying to teach Bonine that pitching to contact is not the Tiger way

  17. Eric Karros is awful.

    First he attributes getting your bat broken and a lucky double as a nice piece of hitting, as if it was by design.

    Then when Russell Martin hits a weak ground ball to second and Kemp gets an actual hit, he wants to credit a portion of the RBI to Martin for making an out.

  18. I was thinking the crowd was booing the call by the ump, not the effort by Renteria. Really nothing more he could have done on that ball.

  20. Did Karros just say that the benefit of Cabrera’s walk off HR was that it “ingratiated him to the city” of Detroit?

  21. Polanco’s lollygagging over behind 2nd to back up that wild throw from Pudge didn’t cost them a run….this time.

  22. omg Penny carrying a no-hitter into the third

    and yeah, T, they were probably booing the ump. I don’t know why I thought they were directing their ire toward Renteria.

  23. Was he lolly gagging? Remember, he doesn’t break until the throw is coming down anyways because he’s not supposed to vacate his position.

  25. TSmith — he’s actually performed remarkably, considering the fact that his helmet is covering his eyes.

  26. Billfer – yes, I know he has to wait, but once he broke….lollygagging maybe a bit harsh, I couldn’t find the right word that’s haflway between lollygagging and hustling, but he wasn’t hustling, if he was hustling, he’d have made that play and the running would have had to stay at 2B.

  27. I’m simply flabbergasted that a team is playing Angel Berroa as a starter in 2008. I mean, you’d think they would at least have a pitcher that played SS in high school or something.

  30. DOUBLE STEAL TIME! Oh wait, they’re both slow as heck.

    PUDGE BUNT TIME! Oh wait, he can’t bunt.

    PUDGE WALK TIME! Oh wait, he doesn’t do that.

    PUDGE HIT TIME! ” ”

    Oh crap.

  33. Nice, Sean. That should have been obvious. Could someone get me some coffee?

    Granderson singles… TIE GAME

  38. Also applies to (rare) Polanco failures in clutch situations.

    Hint for the slow: Choke, gag.

  42. Adam:

    If it stay’s fair, it’s 2-1 right now. I’m okay with it. It’s certainly better than a GDP

  45. Why did Karros just say Thames was an inexperienced fielder? Oh right, he’s an idiot.

    Remarkably, Neal, we’re only 11th in GDP

  50. Well, this should stop the one run strategies. Though I didn’t mind either of those bunts.

  51. Looks like the Dodgers are just waiting on everything, and just putting the bat on it. It looks like they know Bonine can’t throw anything by them, so just wait on it. If he can’t fool these guys, we need to look at someone else.

  52. I have a feeling the Tigers are going to have to score about 8 runs to win, with this kid pitching.

    Need to answer back, this inning.

  60. If the Tigers can’t score more than 1 off Penny, we’re back to square one.

    Derek Lowe must have really messed with their timing last night.

  67. Can we credit the runs to Guillen’s eight-pitch at-bat? Haha. He should get some RBIs for this.

  68. Funny. I was about to type:

    Larrish has just been awful.

    And billfer “duplicate commented” me.

    Of course it’s like Ground-Hog day when Larrish comes to the plate… so not so sure how to get around the duplicate comments

  76. Forget the pessimism, My heart is too full of love for Marcus Thames.

  79. A “looper into left field” that ends up as a triple. Some great announcing here . . .

  80. Brad Penny has completely fallen part. Granderson drives in Rodriguez with a triple. 6-4 Tigers

  85. Curtis! Triple! That was just as exciting as a homer. Pudge scores from second after Martin shows him he can throw a caught-stealing attempt into center-field as well.

  86. lol @ looper into left field

    not every team can count on the line drive broken bat double

  87. Boy, it sure looked to me that Renteria was picked off first earlier this inning. What a difference that would have been. Now look at the score!

  88. Back to the earlier comments about Guillen bunting, I have no problem with that. The third baseman was probably playing back, and if you have a chance at a hit you take it. Bunting for a hit is very different than giving up an out.

  90. I have been quietly enjoying this streak the last couple days. This is more like it. I am not getting the game on Fox today so I can only listen. Grandy with th triple, a 2 HR inning…. Yeah.

  92. Stockton was the same guy who thought Matt Joyce’s homer a couple weeks ago was a routine fly ball to right field.

    Hey, we got a cheapy also.

    And Karros – when Thames dove it was inexperience, but when Either does it it’s the right play?

  93. I love the way Polanco grits his teeth while swinging the bat or running the bases. You’d think he has trouble with TMJ though.

  96. Marcus “Funk Doctor” Thames has been promoted from Ken’s #2 to #1. Granderson has to be hitting at least .275 to reclaim his spot. That triple will help. Let’s knock him in baby to pad this lead. Just did! 7-4 Tigs!!! I

  97. I think you’re right, Tbone. Renteria looked like he was picked off Pollygagging with his lead. Fox never gave us a good replay of it though. Oh well.

  99. watching these balls falling in remind me of what every one has been doing TO the Tigers all year

  100. Cautionary tale: It’s been several games since the bullpen (not just Jones) was really tested, and that last one was shaky.

  101. Two homers in an inning, one of them being Gil and I’m blacked out??? 🙁
    I should have mentioned this last night, but I was thinking about the way Cabrera has been hitting the outside pitch to the opposite field lately, and I thought, once they come inside to him, he’ll react and drive it to left.

  102. There’s really only been one well hit ball off of Bonine. And the guy is throwing strikes. I’ve been very satisfied with his outing.

  104. Carolyn:

    Try the Fox spanish station (if you get that with your cable package). They’re playing the game in my area on the Fox Sports en Espanol, and I just mute it and listen to Dan and Jim from the Internet.

  105. And he Pollygags one into right field and Pollygags all the way to third!

    Adam is the leader in the clubhouse for comment of the day

  114. Thanks, Dave.

    7 runs and merely one Thames HR is not enough to satisfy my soul. I demand total destruction.

  118. Okay, we’re starting to get some major breaks here. Nothing to complain about though, the Tigers weren’t getting the breaks earlier this year.

  121. “I think Cabrera must be in line for possible AL player of the week.”

    Overlooking his defensive play.

  127. Sooo…what happened? Gameday crapped out. Someone run into the third out at home with Thames on deck?

  131. It looks like the Dodgers looked at the Tigers early season tapes and thought it was training video.

  135. successive runners on third …error Ss throw home….next error catcher catch at home…next passed ball Tigers rally for 3

  137. ESPN gamecast is usually pretty good even with a 2/3 screen MBL game on…I like to have both on same time

  138. Okay, time to thank Eddie for a fine performance and turn it over to someone else.

  140. I apologize, Sean. 10-6 Detroit. Bonine just gave up an HR to Andre Ethier, and it looks like he’s done

  141. Weird. All the gamecasts/gamedays have Thames grounding into a fielder’s choice, and Larish being out at home. Only Larish scores on the passed ball. So WTF?

    AH. It has been changed to Renteria being out at third. HOW? LARISH WAS ON THIRD!

  142. good job Eddie next time don’t talk to Hernandez between innings and you will last longer….we will take it ….

  146. Adam….Lamont screwed up on consecutive batters sent the runner home they would have both been out by 20 feet but Larish stopped and went back to third and Renertia rounded second aand also went to third…they tagged them both …Renteria out

  147. Dodgers chipping away. 10-7 Detroit.

    Fossum k’d DeWitt on a sloooooow breaking pitch. End of inning.

  148. Thanks again, Dave (and judpma).

    You (other) high-speed guys have no idea how spooky it gets here in the wilderness, not knowing. The waiting, the wondering, the agony. Have a heart. Put SOMETHING in context once in a while.

    (tongue-in-cheek)

  151. That looked like a contact play in both instances and I doubt that’s Lamont’s call. There’s plenty to blame Lamont for as far as sending runners, but I suspect that was “go on contact” and thus Leyland’s call.

  154. Oh God. Why Fossum? Or is it Fossum? Who do we have who can make us relax, anyway?

  155. Sean, what are you doing even following this game? Are you not aware that round 2 of the epic Battle for Florida is underway?

  156. one thing about having runners on third less than two outs and going on contact…well Ordonez and Larish run like Shawn Rogers and a two hop GB to the SS with the SS in at he grass ain’t gonna get it done neither time…or Lamont did you plan on the two errors to score the runs

  157. How does the bullpen go in 7, 8, and 9? Bautista, Dolsi, and Jones? Dolsi pitched two last night, so I don’t see it happening.

  158. or Lamont did you plan on the two errors to score the runs

    Do you really think Lamont makes that call without any input from Leyland?

  159. ‘the epic Battle for Florida is underway’

    Oh man! Gotta run! Thanks! Bye!

  160. Is this the worst broadcasting team in sports? I find myself longing for Joe Morgan — yeesh!

  161. The pitch Larish walked on looks like it was the best pitch of the at-bat, strike-zone-wise.

    EDIT: Never mind.

  162. Jeff ..who know but both guys were out by 45 feet each I was being generous about being out by 20 feet

  167. Cabrera really could have put a hurting on Martin there if the throw had been lower.

  172. What is with this “take Thames out, put Brent in” thing going on late in games?

    It could have just been 14 to 7!

  178. Thames out. Oh, brilliant. Well, actually, I guess it is a sound defensive move. I would have rather had the runs.

  180. Yeah, I mean, if it’s for defense, you let Thames get his AB with men on and THEN switch at the inning break!

    Duh. Oh yeah, or maybe it’s because Thames already used up his home run for the day.

  183. Miner mows them down in a 1-2-3 inning.

    judpma, we may well see Grilli again when Colorado comes to town next week. I expect him to pitch two perfect innings of relief, as all our ex-pitchers do against us.

  186. Looking at the pattern, we’ll give up three runs next inning, but none in the ninth. So we’re good.

    Thank God for patterns!

  187. I’d like to see the breakdown between Miner coming in at the start of an inning vs. Miner coming in with men on base. I think he trusts his stuff a lot more when there’s nobody on base (a quick glance at his stats seems to confirm this — .217 BA this year with bases empty, .294 with men on, and a much higher walk rate with men on base)

  189. I’ll be completely content with never seeing Bonine on the mound again. He gave up a ton of runs to a AAA calibur lineup who hadn’t scored in 2 months. Clearly throwing grapefruits. Why not plug Miner back in. He has had the most success as a starter and deserves the shot. Morevoer, if Miner is starting, then it’s nearly impossible for him to come out of the bullpen. That’s really the most attractive thing.

  190. I’m guessing Miner is back out for the 8th unless LA has a bunch of lefties coming up (seem to recall they don’t have many).

  193. ‘That’s really the most attractive thing.”

    Good one, Ken.

    Jeff, I can’t think of a single Tigers reliever who is better coming in with men on or even good. Least of all New Sexy Solid. Am I wrong?

  194. Dave the nice part of Grilli coming is he will have to pitch here…we know he can’t do that

  195. Clevlen came in after the last Thames at bat for defense. He wasn’t a pinch hitter there.

  196. assuming we’re in the middle of what will eventually be a double digit win streak, we may want to save freddy solid for like win 7 or 8

  199. “Clevlen came in after the last Thames at bat”

    Thanks. I was misled.

  206. Ken.

    I wish I could expound on your Bonine vs. Miner post. But I can’t. Spot on.

    On another note, is Renteria just awful at short, or am I just being harsh?

  209. “Miner has as many wins as Verlander.

    He must be just as good!”

    You are correct. Wins are the most important pitching stat.

  216. T Smith

    According to Billfer, Edgar is good up the middle, poor in the hole. We should make him prove this statistically.

  217. one thing about Holliman the guy looks like he can play…but I used to say that about a lot of guys

  218. Sean C:

    I’m all for that, but we may NEVER see Billfer again if we do so. Let’s not ask him.

  219. Renteria is not awful at short. All 3 of those plays were very tough plays. I’ll have a post about this coming next week, but advanced stats have him as average at shortstop.

    As for Bonine, well, Galarraga was hit a lot harder last night but they were all at people. Bonine gave up 3 hard hit balls all day. Three of the doubles were cheapies plus a couple infield hits. And he threw strikes.

  220. based on the posts this week when Miggy gets to .280 should he stop hitting?????

  222. Checking the season stats, Edgar seems only to be hitting LH pitching. Holliman’s AAA stats show him hitting RH pitching better, why not platoon for a while to see if the kid can play.

  223. will someone either get Larish a hat that fits or a Maggs wig to lift that hat some

  226. By the way Billfer, I was able to read your post before the edit. A Freudian slip maybe? 🙂

    “Average” is very generous of you, but I’ll go with it.

    (On another note, Orlando Cabrera makes every one of those plays, and Inge probably does too).

  227. Okay, I give up my bias, I just like glove SS’s. Sorry for being so harsh on Edgar, but my post about platooning still stands.

  228. Two Ks with men on third less than two outs.

    There’s nothing I hate more than that.

  230. .281, Sean. It’s sad that he’s only heating up now, since according to Chris he only has some nine months left of his baseball career. So much wasted potential… 🙂

  236. Dave BW: I think Chris original posts had Miguel out of baseball by Memorial day, then he got rational and said at the end of the year.

  237. ‘So much wasted potential…”

    I know. But we should all be grateful we got to see the guy in a Tiger uniform in the twilight of his career. Just like Sheffield.

  238. Eddie Bonine is player of the game, despite giving up 9 hits and 6 ER. I suppose Thames, Cabrera, or Granderson would make too much sense.

  239. Nobody makes all 3 of those plays. Cabrera probably does make at least one of them and maybe 2. Renteria is what he is. A guy with average to slightly below average range that tends to field the balls he gets to cleanly. That’s what he’s been for a few years and what he is this year.

  240. Seay? That’s… not such a weird call, I guess. He could use the work.

  242. Byrdak is pitching for Houston, Ken. His ERA is 1.37, but his peripherals are pretty dreadful.

  243. The first time all year that we’ve won back to back series. That’s pathetic, but it’s nice to break that barrier. I thinks I’m gonna likes interleague play.

  244. We need to trade Renteria to the Sox for Cabrera.

    That’s a joke. Or not.

  246. Bonine’s performance seems to be a matter of divided opinion. Comments, please.

  248. Billfer, I think we all understood what we were getting with Renteria. In the field, we’re getting what we expected, and maybe a little bit less. The problem is we got nothing at the plate like we expected, and that magnifies deficiencies in the field, even if they were expected. If he hits well, all is forgiven, but he has hasn’t.

  249. 12 runs in 8 innings. I like this. This wasn’t Beckett and Papelbon, but it wasn’t Rangers or Mariners pitching, either.

  250. Neal – He does need to hit better, ,but people weren’t ragging on his bat today. They were ragging on his glove. I’ve also heard the term statuesque mentioned frequently. It’s crap.

  251. Bonnie was OK first time out…broke a long standing Tiger starting pitching rule by not walking 4-5-6-7..Hernandez will talk to him about not throwing so many strikes..nibble more, the “Tiger way under Hernandez”,,hopefully he won’t listen…give him another shot!

  252. I can’t believe that getting Sheff back at DH, even at the level he has been at all year, would be an improvement over what’s replaced him.
    Larish had two hits today, but they didn’t look like great swings. The first was an opposite field hack, the second looked like he did not finish his swing in the follow-through.
    Has anyone signed Bonds yet?

  254. “Has anyone signed Bonds yet”

    Nope, Neal. There’s rumors that collusion is keeping teams from picking Bonds up, but they don’t really seem grounded.

  255. Renteria started off hot at the plate. As the team’s fortunes sank, more and more attention settled upon the new and kinda-new guys – Renteria, Cabrera, and Sheffield. The fact that Polanco, Rodriguez, and to a certain extent Guillen (glove, RBIs) were also stinking it up went less noticed.

  256. Bilfer, I think the most frustrating thing with Edgar is the number of infield singles to short that teams seem to get on us, not to mention the number of dp’s that don’t get turned. I don’t watch other teams play when they don’t play the Tigers, but it doesn’t seem to happen to the opposition nearly as much as it does to us.

  257. So, one vote for Bonine so far. Does he get the next start? And if so, how’s his hitting? Wonder if he has a pro AB yet.

    Does Dontrelle Willis bat left?

  258. Granderson is the catalyst of this team, and as Billfer noted, he hasn’t gotten it done since the Wakefield game.
    Polanco has gotten himself up near his career #’s, though we are expecting more.
    Pudge was declining last year, and I don’t think many people thought he would be any better this year.
    Sheffield was a question mark ever since the shoulder injury.
    Guillen has gotten it done with the bat and is progressing at 3rd.
    Cabrerra is getting hot at the plate, his glove still needs work, and he and Guillen are getting some slack for switching positions.
    That leaves Renteria, who hasn’t produced at the plate enough so that his average (or below average) fielding is forgiven.
    I’m just suprised at how little is made of Granderson’s extended slump.

  259. Neal – I guess I’m just frustrated in general with the bashing going on. At times it was warranted and I got pissed off as well. I just look back at everything this comment section has bitched about, and then continued to bitch about:

    “Brandon Inge doesn’t have a good enough bat to play third”
    So the Tigers get one of the elite hitters in the game and people are ragging on him 2 months in. Meanwhile people are clamoring for Inge to be back at third.

    “They have to upgrade defense at short”
    So they go from a poor defender to an average defender who shouldn’t be a black hole offensively and people still complain.

    “Get rid of Sheffield, call up one of the sluggers from Toledo”
    In effect this happens and now Larish is a whipping boy despite the fact it’s exactly what the majority of people were calling for. If he doesn’t get to play regularly Leyland gets hammered for not giving him a chance (a la Raburn). If he is given a chance everyone wants it cut short.

    I guess it’s the complaining about the solutions that people called for that gets to me.

    EDIT: And this isn’t directed at Neal or anyone in particular and not limited to those who frequent this site. It’s the stuff I’ve heard from Tigers fans all over. Believe me, this team earned some bitching this year. And I know stuff in game threads is heat of the moment.

  260. I know I’m guilty of it too.
    Leyland’s in a tough spot with Larish. He and Holliman are the sole prospects at AAA, but what do you do with Cabrerra? He is the long-term face of this franchise, you can’t DH him this young. Larish looks like he can only play 1st or DH, and so DH is all that is possible. I was going to look at the Tigers record with him in the lineup. I remember reading a book as a kid about Willie Mays and how he stunk at the plate when he first came up, but that the Giants were winning. He asked the skipper to pull him, but the skipper responded that he should just play, and only if we lose do we even think about that.

  261. Billfer, you were nicer to Chris, and he bitched a lot more!! No problems, I can take it. Again, my point on Edgar is that people are magnifying his defense in light of the fact that his offense was supposed to make up for it.

  262. Billfer: I was trying to find the best place that determines player value based on offensive and defensive value.
    Runs created is good, but is there a stat (and site) that gives that same vaule for defensive stats?

  263. There are some things you can do on the defensive side, which I’m working on for Renteria. If you pick a metric like PMR or UZR or +/-where it tracks plays made above or below average you can convert it to runs.

  265. Billfer, A+ post. The complaining is so tiresome and so topsy-turvy. It changes from game to game. It’s complaining about Miggy’s glove, or how he is “clearly here to pick up a paycheck” and then when he does show emotion and laughing he’s “not working hard enough.” Or about Renteria it’s how statue-esque he is when he’s not. Is his bat bad this year? Yes. Should it be better than it’s been? Yes. Is his defense average and therefore OFF SETS his bat to a degree (given the number of runs he’s saving compared to Guillen at SS last year)? Yes. Absolutely.

    It gets annoying. At points, I’d rather have the Tigers lose 110 games for a couple of years as it’s nicer, in a way, to watch a terrible team because the complainers are few and far between. No one was bitching about people as much when the team was terrible for the better part of 15 years. Suddenly there’s expectations and now every single thing that goes wrong gets blown up like it’s the end of the world.

    The biggest thing I hate is when people state a players motives as fact like they know that Miguel Cabrera is just collecting his money and going home. I hope when his numbers level out to his career averages (he’s been great the last 6 games and today), all the haters don’t ever revere his successes. Maybe I’m bitter at the fan base (the complainers within the fan base, I suppose), but to me, they’ve lost the right to revere a player after so harshly getting on him. I mean, him getting booed in his first series at home this year? Absolutely ridiculous. Really an eye-opener that terrible fans are everywhere and 2 years of ‘success’ really shines the spot light on the terrible fans.

  266. How strange is it to be watching WGN and hoping that Grilli can shut down the ChiSox?

  267. Sat in the right field stands today. Cool vantage point for the two home runs.

    Cabrera’s was a frozen rope straight over the left field wall.

    Thames’ was hit so high I was sure there was no way it could carry out. I swear I saw the ball up near the lights.

  268. Regarding Cabrera’s motives: I would hope the expression on his face last night after Guillen got hit by the pitch would settle once and for all whether he’s got enough intensity.

  269. “…Is his defense average and therefore OFF SETS his bat to a degree (given the number of runs he’s saving compared to Guillen at SS last year)? Yes. Absolutely….”

    Not saying I disagree, neccessarily, but would like to see this supported. Not so sure this is true.

    I understand the bitching is tiresome. But the reality is, this stretch of games — 10, maybe 20 ? Whatever the exact number, this stretch of games is crucial to this season. The Tigers dug themselves a deep hole and painted themselves into a corner. So now June happens to be the make-or-break month instead of September. Expectations for this team were huge, and emotions are up. This is the season. Every pitch counts. Every run. Every error amplified. That’s what you’re seeing here in this blog, and elsewhere among Tiger fans.

    I somehow think if the Tigers fall out of things the bitching and complaining will stop. Until that happens, it’s gonna be part of the fan-base reaction. It is what it is.

    On that front, I’ve been vocally critical of Renteria because he hasn’t produced at the plate and his defense has been — just “average”. And while he does field the routine play, there have been three, four, even five games I can cite in which his glove has tipped the game. Those add up for me, so to some degree, I feel it’s valid to point it out — especially when the bat doesn’t compensate. Not so sure I would go so far to say that falls in the invalid bitching category. But if I’m wrong about this, by all means correct me.

    Renteria has been defended here as an average shortshop from wihch one shouldn’t expect too much to begin with — so in that sense, I’m admittedly guilty of expecting too much.

  270. Gil! Gil! Gil!

    Okay – this team has me officially pumped up. I’ve run the gamut of emotions this season and it’s only June 14th.

  271. Complaining about complaining would seem to be… more complaining. No?

    “Let’s all agree and be happy” doesn’t make for a very interesting blog. There are facts, and there are opinions, and in between there’s a lot of room for discussion. It may seem that the same people complain no matter what and argue both sides, but it just ain’t so. Look carefully and you’ll see that people are rather consistent. It’s just that there’s always something to question and – yes – complain about, and the voices rise and fall with the changing events. Disagreement – lots. Self-contradiction – not much. People are allowed to change their minds, however, and if the complaining is about wanting the Tigers to do better… well, that’s nothing to complain about.

    One of the good things about a forum where people are free to blurt out reactions in haste is that cooler heads are also free to inject some reason into the discussion. Say something dumb or untrue here, and you’re probably going to get called on it. The good part: A lot of “innocent bystanders” end up learning something they may not have known. I’ve learned a lot this way.

    Personally, I’d rather get my facts about the Tigers mixed in with a healthy dose of humor, and the irrational both positive and negative, than sift through sober analyses. (That’s Billfer’s job.) And I’d still rather spend 10 hours reading posts here – and the articles of course – than spend one minute of time listening to sports talk radio or television. There’s some real enthusiasm here, in case you hadn’t noticed.

  272. Wow, Sean. Diplomat and comedian wrapped up in one. Good post. I’m still laughing…and thinking.

  273. By the way, to support your post, I’ve said a lot of dumb things here. That’s usually when Big Brother… (ahem, Billfer)… chimes in to let us pions know we’re being watched.

  274. Sean

    ” Personally, I’d rather get my facts about the Tigers mixed in with a healthy dose of humor, and the irrational both positive and negative, than sift through sober analysis. (That’s Billfer’s job.) And I’d still rather spend 10 hours reading posts here – and the articles of course – than spend one minute of time listening to sports talk radio or television. There’s some real enthusiasm here, in case you hadn’t noticed.”

    Leave a Reply……my thoughts exactly..kind of scary ain’t it

  275. T Smith

    Thank you. I started off wanting to write something smarmy about Mike R and his Fire Leyland complaints, but then I thought, Mike’s a good guy with a lot to offer here, and he doesn’t deserve that. So I wrote something sensible instead.

    Sometimes I think addressing you as T Smith sounds overly formal, but then I’m afraid that if I go with just T, you might scan right over that single letter and overlook the directed reply. What do you think?

  277. “That’s usually when Big Brother… (ahem, Billfer)”

    Don’t I know it, T. I’ve been caught red-handed a few times. The shame is overwhelming. I’ve actually blushed.

  278. By all means, T will suffice. Or if you’re complaining about an assine post, as in, “…T Smith don’t make me stop this car!” Then T Smith will work. It all works.

  279. judpma

    Did your spellchecker change “analyses” to “analysis”? I want the world to know that the plural form was intended, and that I can indeed spell the singular form.

    I couldn’t have slept otherwise.

  280. I like what I read about Eddie Bonine being “quite the prankster.” I also thought the pictures I’ve seen make him look like a throwback to Tigers pitchers of the 60s and 70s.

    I’m impatient with new pitchers. I seem to have them on an irrationally short leash. Given what I’ve heard and read since I spoke out of turn, I have to say I wouldn’t mind seeing him get another start.

    I’ve officially changed my mind.

  281. You know, i like Miguel Cabrera, and I can’t wait for him to get as hot as Sheffield was last summer – maybe he’s on that train right now – but there are so many on Gil’s bandwagon already, I don’t think there’s any room.

    So I’ll beat the drum for Country Funk Marcus Thames instead. Did you know he hit the home run that put the Tigers ahead, from behind, for good? It’s true. Wadn’t no frozen rope, either, by Kyle’s account. A towering blast! Yes!

    10 HR in, what, 13 AB now? A slugging percentage up around 3.795? Woo yeah.

  282. Baseball is all about “I told you so”. This team could catch fire, make it all the way to the World Series and lose in the ninth inning on some fluke call and their would be some people ( like me) who would say, “I knew we should have fired Leyland earlier in the season.” That is just the way it is. We’re all rooting for the same team; we just have different levels of enthusiasm, tolerance, knowledge of the game, blah, blah, blah. Anyways, go Tigers.

  285. Sean C., go to bed. I feel like there is someone peeking through my living room window. How do you come up with all these astute remarks and comments with so little sleep?

  286. Caffeine, Ron. So far gone I’m chewing raw tea bags now. So I can’t go to sleep. But I can lay down, I guess.

    Say, could you throw me a pillow out here? And what time do you want to wake up tomorrow? I’ll knock on the window.

  287. I like to wake up to that darn Mockingbird at 5 A.M., but you sleep in. I’ll roust you from the bushes before the first pitch. By the way, that Dodger pitcher going tomorrow looks like a young Orel Hershiser. Let’s hope he doesn’t pitch like him.

  288. “…Is his defense average and therefore OFF SETS his bat to a degree (given the number of runs he’s saving compared to Guillen at SS last year)? Yes. Absolutely….”

    Not saying I disagree, neccessarily, but would like to see this supported. Not so sure this is true.

    I understand the bitching is tiresome. But the reality is, this stretch of games — 10, maybe 20 ? Whatever the exact number, this stretch of games is crucial to this season. The Tigers dug themselves a deep hole and painted themselves into a corner. So now June happens to be the make-or-break month instead of September. Expectations for this team were huge, and emotions are up. This is the season. Every pitch counts. Every run. Every error amplified. That’s what you’re seeing here in this blog, and elsewhere among Tiger fans.

    I somehow think if the Tigers fall out of things the bitching and complaining will stop. Until that happens, it’s gonna be part of the fan-base reaction. It is what it is.

    On that front, I’ve been vocally critical of Renteria because he hasn’t produced at the plate and his defense has been — just “average”. And while he does field the routine play, there have been three, four, even five games I can cite in which his glove has tipped the game. Those add up for me, so to some degree, I feel it’s valid to point it out — especially when the bat doesn’t compensate. Not so sure I would go so far to say that falls in the invalid bitching category. But if I’m wrong about this, by all means correct me.

    Renteria has been defended here as an average shortshop from wihch one shouldn’t expect too much to begin with — so in that sense, I’m admittedly guilty of expecting too much.

    The Defense (based on 2007 numbers, since the Probabilistic Model of Range updates their defensive numbers after each season) can be supported with the PMR Defensive numbers (Billfer did this in the analyzation of who should play 3rd after the trade for Miggy and Dontrelle). So I could do that, but I noticed Billfer said he had a post coming on Renteria but I will just give you this (and if this post gets caught in the spam filter, you can take this out Bill if you’re doing a similar study…): in 2007, when the defense for both him and Renteria was normalized for 4000 balls in play (which is about 145-150 games) and converted to a runs total, Guillen was worth a -15 runs and Renteria was worth a -3 runs.

    As far as my post, I’ll amend it to: less complaining that bothers me, and just more irrational fandom that I don’t associate with Detroit Sports Fans. Then again, hockey’s been the only thing Detroit’s been consistently good in in my lifetime and Wings fans have grown apathetic to them. Maybe it’s not a new phenomenon and I’m just a naive kid on the West Side of the state. So I don’t listen to Detroit talk radio, I don’t read the Detroit newspapers (save for the baseball coverage and Danny Knobler since he’s printed state wide and whatever other coverage is in the Kalamazoo Gazette), so perhaps I just missed all this nonsense that seems to go on here (that sounds more harsh then I meant it, honest) with some people. Yes, I’m a stats nerd who feels that I have a great, well-rounded, in-depth view on the game of baseball and the Tigers but unlike some ‘stat nerds’, I don’t have a problem with people who live and die by the avg/hr/rbi or wins/saves/era numbers (though would it kill FSN Detroit to post the OBP’s at each AB? Honestly?), it’s just when things cross over into just sheer irrationality it starts to bother me. Especially pertaining to Miggy (yes, I know that’s mainly just Chris, but still. . .) and I have no problems admitting that as soon as that trade was announced, Miguel Cabrera became my favorite Tiger (which should help to explain why I go to bat for him continuously with some irrational Fan(s) that consistently ride him for being “a bust”).

    The other thing that irks me is just how much people get on Renteria. I just think people have genuinely forgotten just how terrible of a shortstop Carlos Guillen was the last few years. Honestly, and I’m not trying to ‘plug’ my work, but I ran some numbers last year (that I wish I would’ve ran differently now that I look back on it, but whatev’s . . .) and concluded that if you use defense, Renteria can be argued as being more valuable than Carlos Guillen. And I ran those numbers and came to that conclusion last October — before Renteria. (Again, my apologies because as I’m writing this I’m cringing at how overly self-indulgent and I’m-so-much-better-than-you-are it is sounding to me.)

    I don’t know. I’m completely rambling and everyone’s probably aged a decade and a half and Miguel Cabrera’s long, glorious career is probably done before anyone else even reads all this, but I guess the one thing that I never thought of when my favorite of the Detroit teams got successful was the amount of irrational, knee-jerk reacting fans that come with that territory. It gets tiresome and grueling — especially coupled with the team’s bad play — and it’s only since the Tigers have started playing better (the last couple of weeks) that I’ve started to re-contribute my thoughts in the game thread comments and largely because there isn’t the complaining going on. I guess, in the end, I wouldn’t have such a problem with it if it didn’t seem like some people watch the games simply to find something to complain about and when there’s nothing to bitch and moan about, they just don’t post at all. And that irks me. I don’t want to question their commitment to the Tigers as a fan, but I can’t help but wonder how interested the complaining, irrational ones are with baseball when things are going smoothly.

    Sorry, this entire thing was convoluted, too long, and probably shouldn’t have been written (or saved for my blog or something). I guess that happens at nearly 5 AM after a long day and longer night.

    P.S. I hope no one (except for Chris) feels like I’m personally attacking them (and no, Chris, I’m not personally attacking you either, though I’m certain it’ll come across that way … I don’t know you as a person and I’m sure you’re 8000x better a person than you sometimes come across on here). This really is, on the whole, a solid community (you can see it when you’re here when the Tigers are winning) and anyone who followed this blog last year knows how much I love it and love to contribute in it. It’s just certain things have been driving me away as of late and even in the best of times (on the field, that is) it boils over a bit when the top is discussed.

    (I didn’t use enough parenthesis so I’m using them some more.)

    (and some more. Fin.)

  289. I’m sorry if it came off like people can’t complain. Of course people can complain. My frustration is more with the need for there to always be a whipping boy. Especially when said whipping boy is someone that people were clamoring for in the first place.

    And ron, you are right about the “i told you so” aspect. But maybe I’d like that more if there was more “i wanted them to make that move, but i sure was wrong” instead of “dombrowski needs to be fired for putting this crap together.” If you’ve been reading here awhile I’m wrong all the time and am freely open to admit it.

    Again, I’m not speaking about anyone in particular or even limited to here at DTW. It’s just the stuff I’ve heard this season that makes me nuts sometimes.

  290. Mike R:

    Thanks for the post. I have no doubt Renteria’s 2007 numbers look better than Guillen’s 2007 numbers (which is why I’ve been vocally disappointed)…

    I’m not questioning his defensive prowess as an Atlanta Brave, but as a Detroit Tiger. And while I’m not 100% convicted on the point, I’m just not so sure about his 2008 numbers through 1/3 of the season — I just have a hunch (if things continue on par with the defensive preformance I’ve seen) that his -3 runs (2007) are going look more like Guillen’s -15 (2007). Guess we need to wait and see, since they don’t update until the end of the season, as you say. And that’s the crux of what I’m saying.

    And I could be wrong. Interested to hear your thoughts (or Bill’s) on how you feel Renteria’s 2008 PMR is faring relative to his historic numbers.

  291. Mike,
    Your mention of Cabrera in your blog comment appeared in my Miguel Cabrera Google alert. Yes, I am that obsessed. 🙂

  292. Mike R

    Heartfelt post. I enjoyed it. I’d like it if you would just try to ignore the crap you see here and cut in more often with facts we can discuss. Defense in particular is something I want to understand better. I don’t see the games, so I’m left with numbers on baseball-reference,com that I don’t fully understand. It would help me a lot to know how “range factor” and the like are determined and how to apply them to one’s judgement of a player.

    Billfer

    I know you weren’t singling anybody out.

    You command a lot of respect here, and not just because it is your web log. When opinions about a player or a situation spiral out of hand, a word from you on the facts of the matter is all it takes for most people here to take note, and then the debate, if there still is one, gets more factual and serious. Those who won’t stop talking nonsense sentence themselves to not being taken seriously. That may be punishment enough. Don’t let it drive you nuts.

  293. Mike R, great stuff. I can’t often follow the game posts, but they are a lot more enjoyable to reread after a win than after a loss. And I’ll punch anyone’s teeth in who thinks Miggy is a bust.

  295. Mike, pretty good work nonetheless. If you can write that well unconscious, I’m looking forward to the wide awake stuff.

Comments are closed.