So according to this argument the only thing preventing the Yankees and Red Sox from trading for Inge is a bad contract? 30 MLB teams NOT making a move does not confer agreement.

An inherent benefit of catching is being forced to pick up the spin on pitches and key in on the ball from release-to-glove. If anything, it provides an advantage in the way he’s able to approach hitting. Many catchers aren’t poor hitters because of a disadvantage built-in to the position’s demands, but because it’s a position so important to a defense that hitting often takes a backseat to steady defensive play.

Brandon’s problem is that he’s established a mental disconnect, an excuse for a lack of focus at the plate. This mental aspect cannot be overcome unless he makes the decision to overcome it. He’s made up his mind; a trade is the best avenue the Tigers can pursue.

Using 1,800-at-bat samples is “massaging stats.”

Analyzing a single box score is “representative” of a player’s fundamental abilities.

Pretty difficult to reconcile those viewpoints.

If he really wants to prove his worth and ability how about ultimate fighting ?, those guys sure arnt getting 6 mil. per year (nor can they play third .

Hey Inge how does your job look now?

Steve

You say I only have the same two dozen stories? How about his lifetime stats? How about plunging average from his .287 campaign? How about plunging power from the abberation ’06 year?

Some of your metrics are great. And some are massaged nonsense.

I have never disdained objective information. We just don’t happen to agree on ALL sources of information.

You can recall all the stats you want from then to justify the deal then. However it turns out I was right and it was a bad contract. And speaking of small sample sizes only 30 MLB teams agree with me. You keep your 2000 at bats, they know more than the Cashman’s and Epstein’s of MLB.

Thanks for seeing my consistancy. Also, 7 of those 8 meaningless jobs in ’06 were at the end of the year where we dwindled a double digit lead away to MinneHaHa. Though, you are right on ’07. Of the very few homers Inge hit this year many were in fairly critical situations. Though, a handful of dingers compared to 150 whiffs and a putrid average does not speak well of Inge. And I know you aren’t advocating that he played well in ’07.

Nate and Kyle,

I think you need to look at the body of Inge’s work, including catching when looking at his stats. For most of his career, particularly early, Inge couldn’t hit a thing. Inge finally did learn to hit a bit by going the other way and by doing so he posted his .287 year. After that pitchers took him more seriously and changed their approach on him. His average has dipped ever since. As for his one power year (27 dingers) many of those were hit in situations where the approach from the pitcher was different than if the game had been close. For that reason, I believe, you have seen the one abberation year of 27 dingers. Inge feasted on bad pitchers throwing dead nuts fastballs in games out of hand. That is not the approach used by pitchers in tight games. Inge has not been remotely close to 27 since.

Kathy, I completley agree.

Ryan,

You did a nice job of articulating. Believe me, I felt the stream of obcenaties I appreciate your defense of Bilfer. My posts can be acrid, yet I think Bilfer (through gritted teeth perhaps) would acknowledge how many times I have complimented him, his work, his site, and his loyalty.

Bilfer and I have heated debates about sabermetrics. We don’t agree at all on those. Today I think I rightly, albeit strongly, called out Bilfer for using some massaged stats. I think Bilfer realizes my post was not a personal attack. But to show I am not a complete monster, I apologize to Bilfer for any offense in writing style. Though, I won’t back off on the gist of my rebuttle to his 1800 statement.

Also, I think Bilfer would say that you need one jerk in any room to keep things lively, provided said jerk isn’t over the top. One would also hope said jerk had a point. I don’t think I have been too over the top and have not been repremanded or booted by Bilfer. Yet. And I do think I at least have a point. Apparently, you don’t think I have a point at all.

So, let’s talk about that…. Stats and metrics are important. They are wonderful tools. But I contend you use these tools too often in a massaged way. They are not nearly as good as you claim they are. Though, let me REPEAT that they are useful and important.. They help us make some determinations and stop ridiculous comments like (for example) “David Eckstein’s tremendous heart willed Granderson to slip and thereby hand the Series to the Cardinals”. Ok, I get that you need to quantify and quantifying helps prove that comment asinine. But quantification breaks down eventually or can be used to advocate stupidity. For example the reason why you don’t see “opptimized line-ups” in MLB is because of approach and nuance. Oh sure, it makes for good conversation in February, but we aren’t rolling dice here. Moving your 3rd and 4th hitters to lead off and second (or whatever the nonsense usually is) will not get you the half a run a game the computer models say they will. Why? Because the opposing manager can adjust his approach and that is a human element that can’t be quantified.

OPS? Great stat. OPS+ great stat. Range factor? Fair stat at best. Optimized line-ups? Dungeon’s and Dragon’s. There are good saberstats and there are bad saberstats.

Ryan, you may hate anacdotal evidence but there are times when it is valuable… Inge’s baseball IQ is awful. And it can be shown by anacdotal evidence… Tagging 3rd with no force. Getting picked off of third by a throw from catcher to pitcher. (yes, that is good work on Clemens and Posada, but you still need a runner gullible enough to fall for it, and in 50 years only Brandon has), getting doubled off of second on a 400 foot flyout of a 1 run game because he didn’t pay attention to how many outs there were, NEVER moving a runner along in the NY playoff series despite numerous chances, that last KC game in ’06… Inge has gaffes like no other. And those anacdotes add up. The proof is the fact that we can’t trade Inge unless we eat that ridiculous contract. Someone above made the brilliant comment that Inge is an athlete, not a baseball player. I believe the numerous and profound anacdotel evidence is proof of this.

I am not saying anacdotel evidence is more important than sabermetrics. I am saying that both have uses and limitations. For whatever reason my Inge debates usually segue to this topic.

If you can’t at least see any points in my original post or this follow up then I would suspect you of being deliberatly obtuse.

Which is fine. Agree to disagree.

http://tigers-thoughts.blogspo.....-rant.html

Thames has never complained about his role behind Monroe and others, but I’m sure he’d like more AB’s. Maroth was a great community guy and took 21 losses in ’03, but never complained publicly about being left off the ’06 playoff roster or being jettisoned before his payday. C-Mo had moments of huge ego, but took his release/trade like a man and never cried to the reporters who surely asked him about his feelings. Chris Shelton was demoted for better offensive performance than BI, and failed to make the team in ’07 despite hitting .400 in S.T. and watching Casey hit under .200 for a month, and yet he never pouted after his release. Carlos Pena lost his job, suffered demotion, and bounced around several organizations before quietly resurrecting his career elsewhere.
As Bilfer states, many fans are equating Brandon with Bobby Higginson, rather than the above examples.

The Tigers’ job is to win, not please Brandon Inge. Obviously, he’s going to be paid the remaining $$ in his contract, but he’s destroying his fan support and potentially limiting his ability to stay in the game in the future by trying to dictate where he will or won’t play. Lots of folks have been disappointed with their roles at times, but I can think of few who’ve handled it with less grace.

I’ll admit to poorly writing my assertion. It says what it says so that’s fine. I’ll now clarify my intent with the statement about the 1800 at-bats and the contract.

My point was that Inge had more than one good season. That said “one good season” was actually several adequate seasons. The contract was of course based on 2004-2006. (as others have noted that span constituted over 1500 ABs with an OPS of 770 so I was clearly trying to massage the numbers). 2007 was included because for the first half of the season Inge was quite good.

It made for 1800 ABs and 2000 plate appearances, a span which was not insignificant. A continuous span large enough to indicate that Inge’s 2006 success was not a fluke as it represented nearly 3 full seasons worth of trips to the plate.

Yes, Inge’s career line is poor. It was miraculous that he was even around in 2004. But there is still a clear and distinct shift in performance that between the 2006 and 2007 seasons rendered his career performance not at all indicative of his value at the time. I could break out CUSUM, EWMA or Shewhart charts to show that a new mean level had been established, but considering your disdain for objective information or data why bother.

In fact, if I was as desperate as you claim I could have included Inge’s numbers from 2003 after he returned from his AAA demotion to further lengthen the time line that he didn’t suck.

But I’m done with this argument. There’s no point in continuing. You accuse me of cherry picking 3.5 seasons of data to make Inge look good while you select 8 homers to make him look bad.

I’ll stick by my 2000 plate appearances, you stick to your two dozen stories which you repeat time and time again. Who’s the desperate one?

Inge rightly deserves criticism for his offense in the second half last year (and the early part of his career). He deserves criticism for the last game in 2006 and for baserunning mistakes and for tagging third when there was no force out. He deserves criticism for his statements on Sunday. Which was the impetus for this post in the first place. I just step when the criticism is unwarranted or misplaced.

1566 AB, .770 OPS. Not great, but not terrible either.

Was there a better alternative available at the end of the last year? How much more would the Tigers have had to pay this hypothetical third baseman?

I’m not arguing that he lived up to the contract last year, but I don’t think it was quite as ridiculous a decision as EZ does (and always has, to his credit).

Also, since EZ regularly says that Inge only hits meaningless home runs, I do feel it only fair to point out that 23 of Brandon’s 41 home runs in the past two years occurred when the difference in the game was only one run. In 2006, I guess you could say that EZ’s point is true: 8 of his home runs (a little more than a quarter of the ones he hit) did occur when the difference in the score was greater than 4 runs.

None of this means he should be a starter on our team, or even an option for the future at catcher. I don’t think he’d be an all-star at catcher; I imagine his offensive decline will continue as he gets older.