Comments on: Trammell, grass, and the Hall of Fame http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:11:17 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: rings http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110472 rings Wed, 14 Jan 2009 02:50:51 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110472 Coach Jim: I agree...if guys like Ozzie, Sutter, Rice and Carter were NOT in, I'd have much less problem with Trammell, Larkin & Morris being overlooked. The "dominant" threshhold doesn't apply to any of them. But they ARE in and to overlook so many others reeks of media favoritism, big market bias, or exteraneous factors that have nothing do do with their value or performance as a player. As far as Tram's "poor offensive years," they were still average to above-average for his position. From '78-'93, he was an above-average MLB hitter - and way above for a SS - often hitting #2-4 in one of the 80's most feared lineups, and keeping in mind the best of his career was still before the late 90's steriod boom. He was also a W.S. MVP -and 2x leader of the team with the best record in baseball. Its as strong a case as any of the other above-mentioned inductees. Coach Jim: I agree…if guys like Ozzie, Sutter, Rice and Carter were NOT in, I’d have much less problem with Trammell, Larkin & Morris being overlooked. The “dominant” threshhold doesn’t apply to any of them. But they ARE in and to overlook so many others reeks of media favoritism, big market bias, or exteraneous factors that have nothing do do with their value or performance as a player.
As far as Tram’s “poor offensive years,” they were still average to above-average for his position. From ‘78-’93, he was an above-average MLB hitter – and way above for a SS – often hitting #2-4 in one of the 80’s most feared lineups, and keeping in mind the best of his career was still before the late 90’s steriod boom. He was also a W.S. MVP -and 2x leader of the team with the best record in baseball. Its as strong a case as any of the other above-mentioned inductees.

]]> By: jud http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110471 jud Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:58:17 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110471 the biggest problem Tram and also Whittaker had was they showed up everyday ...worked hard....kept their mouth shut...were team players....were professionals ...played the game right.............neither could survive on a team today with those kind of problems the biggest problem Tram and also Whittaker had was they showed up everyday …worked hard….kept their mouth shut…were team players….were professionals …played the game right………….neither could survive on a team today with those kind of problems

]]> By: Coach Jim http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110468 Coach Jim Tue, 13 Jan 2009 20:53:16 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110468 Hats off to Mark in Chicago for bringing up the RANGE factor. You're absolutely right that Ozzie made tons of plays up the middle and in the hole that other SS just didn't get to. Still, compared to the "average" shortstop of the 80s (Julio Franco?), Trammell was top-notch. Also, we tend to think of Trammell as a big-time hitter. Sure, he had his good years, but he batted over .300 as many times as he batted under .270. I remember him having a bad (or should I say mediocre) habit of hitting .258. My personal standards for the HOF would be much higher than they are now. I would prefer to not include players that were good for a long time. I would limit it to players that were dominant for a long time. Rickey Henderson, Tony Gwynn, sure. I really like Ozzie and Tram, but I think they are both just below my threshhold. Hats off to Mark in Chicago for bringing up the RANGE factor. You’re absolutely right that Ozzie made tons of plays up the middle and in the hole that other SS just didn’t get to. Still, compared to the “average” shortstop of the 80s (Julio Franco?), Trammell was top-notch.

Also, we tend to think of Trammell as a big-time hitter. Sure, he had his good years, but he batted over .300 as many times as he batted under .270. I remember him having a bad (or should I say mediocre) habit of hitting .258.

My personal standards for the HOF would be much higher than they are now. I would prefer to not include players that were good for a long time. I would limit it to players that were dominant for a long time. Rickey Henderson, Tony Gwynn, sure. I really like Ozzie and Tram, but I think they are both just below my threshhold.

]]> By: Detroit Tigers Weblog 2008 Year in Review http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110275 Detroit Tigers Weblog 2008 Year in Review Wed, 31 Dec 2008 22:36:13 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-110275 [...] Debunking the theory that long grass helped Trammell’s defense [...] [...] Debunking the theory that long grass helped Trammell’s defense [...]

]]> By: Friday Links (11 Jan 2008) http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75590 Friday Links (11 Jan 2008) Fri, 11 Jan 2008 15:25:39 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75590 [...] at Detroit Tigers Weblog wonders whether San Diego native Alan Trammell’s defense gets unfairly dismissed because of the long grass at Tiger [...] [...] at Detroit Tigers Weblog wonders whether San Diego native Alan Trammell’s defense gets unfairly dismissed because of the long grass at Tiger [...]

]]> By: Damian http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75543 Damian Wed, 09 Jan 2008 17:37:35 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75543 I live in San Diego know Tram well. He does not get a lot of love for the HOF voters and I'm personally disappointed in his lack of recognition. A quote from him states "Maybe people are looking at us as not exactly superstars, but a team. That's the way we were taught and that's the way we played every day.". That says volumes for who he is deeply is... I live in San Diego know Tram well. He does not get a lot of love for the HOF voters and I’m personally disappointed in his lack of recognition. A quote from him states

“Maybe people are looking at us as not exactly superstars, but a team. That’s the way we were taught and that’s the way we played every day.”.

That says volumes for who he is deeply is…

]]> By: Cameron in Singapore http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75493 Cameron in Singapore Mon, 07 Jan 2008 14:47:36 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75493 Trammell belongs in the Hall. It's just too bad it's not going to happen, but the case is clear. Trammell belongs in the Hall. It’s just too bad it’s not going to happen, but the case is clear.

]]> By: Joey the K http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75466 Joey the K Sun, 06 Jan 2008 07:21:45 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75466 This is what you get for being great at your job for 20 years and being very professional but doing it without any flash- snubbed. Ozzie gets in on his personality and back flips, but I thought it was the BASEBALL Hall of Fame. Make a special exception and put Tram and Lou on the plaque. This is what you get for being great at your job for 20 years and being very professional but doing it without any flash- snubbed.

Ozzie gets in on his personality and back flips, but I thought it was the BASEBALL Hall of Fame.

Make a special exception and put Tram and Lou on the plaque.

]]> By: Rings http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75456 Rings Sat, 05 Jan 2008 23:34:04 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75456 Lee...I very much respect your work and enjoy your website, but much as the Inge discussion which has gone on here in the past, a gaudy range-factor does not a Hall of Famer make. Its a nice stat, but still falls rather low on the totem pole of defining statistics to measure a players value. Further, the issue with his election is that none of the media members voted for him because of his "range factor." In fact, the majority of media voters were (are?) very unlikely to have ever heard of such a thing at the time. They voted for him because they liked him personally and he was a fan favorite for doing backflips and diving for balls on TWIB. This is wrong and hurts the credibility of the Hall if it degrades into the popularity contest that its becoming. As others have expressed above, Trammell compares very favorably to all hall of fame shortstops, both offensively and defensively and he deserves to be inducted, particularly if contemporaries Ripken, Yount and Smith are all in. Lee…I very much respect your work and enjoy your website, but much as the Inge discussion which has gone on here in the past, a gaudy range-factor does not a Hall of Famer make. Its a nice stat, but still falls rather low on the totem pole of defining statistics to measure a players value.

Further, the issue with his election is that none of the media members voted for him because of his “range factor.” In fact, the majority of media voters were (are?) very unlikely to have ever heard of such a thing at the time. They voted for him because they liked him personally and he was a fan favorite for doing backflips and diving for balls on TWIB.
This is wrong and hurts the credibility of the Hall if it degrades into the popularity contest that its becoming.
As others have expressed above, Trammell compares very favorably to all hall of fame shortstops, both offensively and defensively and he deserves to be inducted, particularly if contemporaries Ripken, Yount and Smith are all in.

]]> By: Lee Panas http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75454 Lee Panas Sat, 05 Jan 2008 21:14:45 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75454 I don't see it as a Trammell versus Smith thing. They played the same position but they were very different types of players. Smith is a special case. He was the best defensive shortstop in the history of the game and redefined how the position was played. An analogy would be a designated hitter who was the best hitter ever making the Hall of Fame. I think Trammell was a better all around player but he needs to be compared to other all around players rather than defensive specialists. I'd put him in there but I can see why some don't vote for him. I don't have a problem with him being out and Smith being in. the real crime was Whitaker dropping off the ballot the first time around. That's a joke. I don’t see it as a Trammell versus Smith thing. They played the same position but they were very different types of players. Smith is a special case. He was the best defensive shortstop in the history of the game and redefined how the position was played. An analogy would be a designated hitter who was the best hitter ever making the Hall of Fame.

I think Trammell was a better all around player but he needs to be compared to other all around players rather than defensive specialists. I’d put him in there but I can see why some don’t vote for him. I don’t have a problem with him being out and Smith being in.

the real crime was Whitaker dropping off the ballot the first time around. That’s a joke.

]]> By: BobS. http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75453 BobS. Sat, 05 Jan 2008 20:26:49 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75453 Rings,I personally think all of your "if" guys and the "why not" guys belong in.There was a time when I would have argued for the exclusivity of the HoF,but it was the voters themselves who turned it into the 'Hall of the Very Good',as some have referred to it.But those guys you mention (and local guy Ted Simmons) are all among the best at their positions for the time that they played. Blyleven has been getting screwed for a long time.Among the pitchers who I like to think lowered the bar is Jim Bunning.He had some great years in Detroit(7 All Star appearances) and I remember how pissed off my dad was when he was given away to the Phillies for Don Demeter.It's painful to think the Tigers may have gone to a Series or two more with a rotation of Bunning,Lolich,and McLain.But,overall,it's hard to argue he had a better career than Blyleven.It's my feeling that his political career (first as a congressman,and then as a senator post-HoF induction) helped grease the skids,as well as his throwing no-hitters in both the AL and NL.Otherwise,his numbers aren't that special. Rings,I personally think all of your “if” guys and the “why not” guys belong in.There was a time when I would have argued for the exclusivity of the HoF,but it was the voters themselves who turned it into the ‘Hall of the Very Good’,as some have referred to it.But those guys you mention (and local guy Ted Simmons) are all among the best at their positions for the time that they played.
Blyleven has been getting screwed for a long time.Among the pitchers who I like to think lowered the bar is Jim Bunning.He had some great years in Detroit(7 All Star appearances) and I remember how pissed off my dad was when he was given away to the Phillies for Don Demeter.It’s painful to think the Tigers may have gone to a Series or two more with a rotation of Bunning,Lolich,and McLain.But,overall,it’s hard to argue he had a better career than Blyleven.It’s my feeling that his political career (first as a congressman,and then as a senator post-HoF induction) helped grease the skids,as well as his throwing no-hitters in both the AL and NL.Otherwise,his numbers aren’t that special.

]]> By: Tim D http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75452 Tim D Sat, 05 Jan 2008 19:05:05 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75452 I've said it before and I will say it again: Trammell's career numbers are mid to upper tier for ALL shortstops in the HOF. He should be in easily. Whitaker's numbers are similar among second baseman. But as long as even DETROIT writers think they are marginal it will never happen. Thank you Joe Falls and Lynn Henning. A lot of folks (read Henning) don't like the "so and so is in so my guy must be in" argument. Well then don't put Luis Aparicio and Phil Rizzuto and Travis Jackson in. I happen to think Ozzie is a HOF, and so, likely, are Vizquel and Larkin. Trammell isn't a close call. Compare his numbers to all the guys, don't just cherrypick Ripken and Smith. But there are still people who have votes who would rather put Concepcion or even Bowa in. Insane. And the grass business; give me a break. Just how long was it? Just how much difference did it make? How about all the slow rollers they couldn't get to because they just died? How about that Trammell had to hit it through that grass? And how about that he was excellent on the road? On grass and turf both? Please. Sheehan is better than this; if he is curious he should get one of his salaried BPro guys to work it up, rather than speculate in print. Well Joe, Billfer beat you to it and you are wrong. With all the hue and cry over Blyleven, who to my mind is a no-brainer, is there anyone out there who actually thinks Blyleven was a more dominant player than Trammell? No way. I’ve said it before and I will say it again: Trammell’s career numbers are mid to upper tier for ALL shortstops in the HOF. He should be in easily. Whitaker’s numbers are similar among second baseman. But as long as even DETROIT writers think they are marginal it will never happen. Thank you Joe Falls and Lynn Henning.

A lot of folks (read Henning) don’t like the “so and so is in so my guy must be in” argument. Well then don’t put Luis Aparicio and Phil Rizzuto and Travis Jackson in. I happen to think Ozzie is a HOF, and so, likely, are Vizquel and Larkin. Trammell isn’t a close call. Compare his numbers to all the guys, don’t just cherrypick Ripken and Smith. But there are still people who have votes who would rather put Concepcion or even Bowa in. Insane.

And the grass business; give me a break. Just how long was it? Just how much difference did it make? How about all the slow rollers they couldn’t get to because they just died? How about that Trammell had to hit it through that grass? And how about that he was excellent on the road? On grass and turf both? Please. Sheehan is better than this; if he is curious he should get one of his salaried BPro guys to work it up, rather than speculate in print. Well Joe, Billfer beat you to it and you are wrong.

With all the hue and cry over Blyleven, who to my mind is a no-brainer, is there anyone out there who actually thinks Blyleven was a more dominant player than Trammell? No way.

]]> By: Mark in Chicago http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75451 Mark in Chicago Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:32:20 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75451 To play the devil's advocate a bit, Ozzie had a much better defensive range factor of 5.03, vs. Tram's 4.47 (calculated: PO + A / G) over their careers. So Ozzie got to more balls than Tram did, and with fielding % basically a wash, I would argue Ozzie is probably a better fielder, turning about 90 more balls into outs over the course of a season. That said, Tram's offensive numbers are vastly superior to Ozzies, and it's not even close: career OPS+ of 110 for Tram and 87 (eighty-seven!!) for Smith. Ripken, by way of comparison, has a range factor of 4.62 (right in between Tram and Ozzie) and an OPS+ of 112, essentially equal to Tram. So Tram stacks up as an above average offensive player and above average fielder over his career, and compares favorably against two players already in the HOF. I personally cannot see the logic of the HOF letting BOTH Ozzie and Ripken in and not Trammell, given how the numbers stack up. Unfortunately, arbitrary things such as Smith' Gold Gloves and Ripken's counseutive games streak (probably deservedly so, on this one) attracted votes, while Tram has nothing quite so extraordinary. He was just a very good player for a long time. To play the devil’s advocate a bit, Ozzie had a much better defensive range factor of 5.03, vs. Tram’s 4.47 (calculated: PO + A / G) over their careers. So Ozzie got to more balls than Tram did, and with fielding % basically a wash, I would argue Ozzie is probably a better fielder, turning about 90 more balls into outs over the course of a season. That said, Tram’s offensive numbers are vastly superior to Ozzies, and it’s not even close: career OPS+ of 110 for Tram and 87 (eighty-seven!!) for Smith.

Ripken, by way of comparison, has a range factor of 4.62 (right in between Tram and Ozzie) and an OPS+ of 112, essentially equal to Tram. So Tram stacks up as an above average offensive player and above average fielder over his career, and compares favorably against two players already in the HOF. I personally cannot see the logic of the HOF letting BOTH Ozzie and Ripken in and not Trammell, given how the numbers stack up. Unfortunately, arbitrary things such as Smith’ Gold Gloves and Ripken’s counseutive games streak (probably deservedly so, on this one) attracted votes, while Tram has nothing quite so extraordinary. He was just a very good player for a long time.

]]> By: Blake http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75450 Blake Sat, 05 Jan 2008 18:24:30 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75450 This is a topic that I to have avoided writing about because of my bias. However, it seems that most writers I respect say that, without question, Trammell should be headed to the Hall. The long grass argument is weak at best. Here's hoping the Veteran's Committee puts him in eventually. This is a topic that I to have avoided writing about because of my bias. However, it seems that most writers I respect say that, without question, Trammell should be headed to the Hall. The long grass argument is weak at best. Here’s hoping the Veteran’s Committee puts him in eventually.

]]> By: ron http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75448 ron Sat, 05 Jan 2008 17:06:43 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/trammell-grass-and-the-hall-of-fame/#comment-75448 Tram, Lou, Gibby brought us a World Series because it was a well balanced, well managed scrappy team. We did not need any hall of famers. Now we have a few potential hall of famers. Do you think anyone can step up to the plate and lead this team to the promise land after 24 years? We do not need a bunch of gaudy stats that we can pore over day in and day out. We need a LOU,LOU,LOU! Tram, Lou, Gibby brought us a World Series because it was a well balanced, well managed scrappy team. We did not need any hall of famers. Now we have a few potential hall of famers. Do you think anyone can step up to the plate and lead this team to the promise land after 24 years? We do not need a bunch of gaudy stats that we can pore over day in and day out. We need a LOU,LOU,LOU!

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