Comments on: The Full Pen http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » The odd Beltran-Raburn move http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-78723 The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » The odd Beltran-Raburn move Sun, 06 Apr 2008 15:27:33 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-78723 [...] was a time when I suggested the Tigers might go with an 8 man bullpen to avoid losing players who were out of options. Of course at the time Fernando Rodney was healthy, [...] [...] was a time when I suggested the Tigers might go with an 8 man bullpen to avoid losing players who were out of options. Of course at the time Fernando Rodney was healthy, [...]

]]> By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Why Ramon Santiago http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-76781 The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Why Ramon Santiago Sat, 23 Feb 2008 06:11:12 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-76781 [...] it wouldn’t shock me to see the Tigers actually take a 13th pitcher in that case due to the roster crunch in the pen, an area that is much more tenuous for the team than middle [...] [...] it wouldn’t shock me to see the Tigers actually take a 13th pitcher in that case due to the roster crunch in the pen, an area that is much more tenuous for the team than middle [...]

]]> By: baseball » Comment on The Full Pen by Chris in Dallas http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-76000 baseball » Comment on The Full Pen by Chris in Dallas Fri, 25 Jan 2008 23:44:57 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-76000 [...] Chris in Dallas wrote a fantastic post today on “Comment on The Full Pen by Chris in Dallas”Here’s ONLY a quick extractLook at the Tigers ‘pen in 2006 and then look at it in 2007. There’s no guarantee that Cleveland or even Boston will be able to duplicate their successes from ‘07 this coming season. (I do suspect Papelbon will be just fine, though). … [...] [...] Chris in Dallas wrote a fantastic post today on “Comment on The Full Pen by Chris in Dallas”Here’s ONLY a quick extractLook at the Tigers ‘pen in 2006 and then look at it in 2007. There’s no guarantee that Cleveland or even Boston will be able to duplicate their successes from ‘07 this coming season. (I do suspect Papelbon will be just fine, though). … [...]

]]> By: Mark in Chicago http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75994 Mark in Chicago Fri, 25 Jan 2008 19:14:55 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75994 Good point, Eric, and you're probably right, I am selectively remembering the times when Grilli couldn't find the strike zone. To me, it seemed as though when he lost command, he had a real tough time getting it back. Therefore, he may go 3-4 appearances and be OK, but he'll go out there one day and walk 3 batters while getting 4 outs. So it just seems the consistency isn't there. To be fair, i should probably put Rodney in that group as well. Dave T. also makes a good point that better starting pitching should help tremendously and should leave the pen less exposed. Good point, Eric, and you’re probably right, I am selectively remembering the times when Grilli couldn’t find the strike zone. To me, it seemed as though when he lost command, he had a real tough time getting it back. Therefore, he may go 3-4 appearances and be OK, but he’ll go out there one day and walk 3 batters while getting 4 outs. So it just seems the consistency isn’t there. To be fair, i should probably put Rodney in that group as well.

Dave T. also makes a good point that better starting pitching should help tremendously and should leave the pen less exposed.

]]> By: Chris in Dallas http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75990 Chris in Dallas Fri, 25 Jan 2008 15:57:43 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75990 Bullpens are a volatile thing. Look at the Tigers 'pen in 2006 and then look at it in 2007. There's no guarantee that Cleveland or even Boston will be able to duplicate their successes from '07 this coming season. (I do suspect Papelbon will be just fine, though). For that reason it's foolish to throw oodles of cash for relievers a la Baltimore or Chicago. The way the Tigers are going about putting together the bullpen is smart in my opinion. By the way, Grilli's ERA on the road was 1.91 on the road vs. 7.96 at home. You guys should stop booing him at CoPa :-) Bullpens are a volatile thing. Look at the Tigers ‘pen in 2006 and then look at it in 2007. There’s no guarantee that Cleveland or even Boston will be able to duplicate their successes from ’07 this coming season. (I do suspect Papelbon will be just fine, though). For that reason it’s foolish to throw oodles of cash for relievers a la Baltimore or Chicago. The way the Tigers are going about putting together the bullpen is smart in my opinion. By the way, Grilli’s ERA on the road was 1.91 on the road vs. 7.96 at home. You guys should stop booing him at CoPa :-)

]]> By: Eric Cioe http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75981 Eric Cioe Fri, 25 Jan 2008 05:23:00 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75981 I don't understand why the spare parts can't come out of our own system. I also don't understand what makes you think this isn't a decent pen. No, it isn't the Red Sox pen, but it doesn't need to be. Who had the best pen in the AL Central last year? Cleveland, I'd say. How many of those guys' names did you know last January? You maybe knew Borowski. You didn't know the Rafaels or anyone else, though, and certainly weren't expecting them to deliver like they did. Of course Todd Jones will have a rough stretch this year; he blew six saves last year. But you know who else did? Bobby Jenks and K-Rod. Rivera blew four. Street blew five. As far as Rodney not being very good, how was he after he returned from the DL last year? I think he went about three weeks before allowing a run. Also, who cares if Bazardo's sinker looks more like a starter? That's "conventional baseball wisdom," which isn't very wise. Just because a guy doesn't go out there and rack up K's doesn't mean he can't have success in the pen. And I don't think that putting him in the pen for a year would be worse for him as a developing MLB starter than spending another year at AAA. Byrdak improved leaps and bounds last year not because he got lucky, but because he added a pitch. Who knows if he'll repeat his great numbers, but with the cause of the success being another pitch rather than dumb luck, his chances look better. Seay is good. You're right - he's in a limited role right now. But that doesn't mean that he couldn't be given a bigger one. Righties or lefties don't hit him very well. Grilli and Miner both have stuff. Grilli is a whipping boy here, but he was good down the stretch and threw 80 innings for this club (that's fifth most on the team, including starters). And Miner has good stuff, keeps the ball on the ground, and had ERA of 3.01 last year over 50 innings. What else do you want? You want a big-name signing that we can throw the ridiculous sums that marginal relievers are asking for? I don't see why that is at all superior to staying with what we have, including the two guys that will be new to the pen this year, Cruceta and Bazardo. Having a good pen at a reasonable cost is all about looking for arms where the other guys aren't. Otherwise you just look foolish ... like the White Sox. I don’t understand why the spare parts can’t come out of our own system. I also don’t understand what makes you think this isn’t a decent pen. No, it isn’t the Red Sox pen, but it doesn’t need to be.

Who had the best pen in the AL Central last year? Cleveland, I’d say. How many of those guys’ names did you know last January? You maybe knew Borowski. You didn’t know the Rafaels or anyone else, though, and certainly weren’t expecting them to deliver like they did.

Of course Todd Jones will have a rough stretch this year; he blew six saves last year. But you know who else did? Bobby Jenks and K-Rod. Rivera blew four. Street blew five.

As far as Rodney not being very good, how was he after he returned from the DL last year? I think he went about three weeks before allowing a run.

Also, who cares if Bazardo’s sinker looks more like a starter? That’s “conventional baseball wisdom,” which isn’t very wise. Just because a guy doesn’t go out there and rack up K’s doesn’t mean he can’t have success in the pen. And I don’t think that putting him in the pen for a year would be worse for him as a developing MLB starter than spending another year at AAA.

Byrdak improved leaps and bounds last year not because he got lucky, but because he added a pitch. Who knows if he’ll repeat his great numbers, but with the cause of the success being another pitch rather than dumb luck, his chances look better.

Seay is good. You’re right – he’s in a limited role right now. But that doesn’t mean that he couldn’t be given a bigger one. Righties or lefties don’t hit him very well.

Grilli and Miner both have stuff. Grilli is a whipping boy here, but he was good down the stretch and threw 80 innings for this club (that’s fifth most on the team, including starters).

And Miner has good stuff, keeps the ball on the ground, and had ERA of 3.01 last year over 50 innings.

What else do you want? You want a big-name signing that we can throw the ridiculous sums that marginal relievers are asking for? I don’t see why that is at all superior to staying with what we have, including the two guys that will be new to the pen this year, Cruceta and Bazardo. Having a good pen at a reasonable cost is all about looking for arms where the other guys aren’t. Otherwise you just look foolish … like the White Sox.

]]> By: Tim D http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75979 Tim D Fri, 25 Jan 2008 04:23:14 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75979 This is currently not a very good pen. Start with the "sure things," neither of which is too sure. Jones will just plain run out of gas one of these days. Hopefully not this year. He will undoubtedly have some bad stretches along with the good. Rodney has done little aside from 2006. If he can't stay healthy he doesn't help much. There is no point even thinking about Zumaya. Byrdak finally had a good year at 33; will he have another one? Anybody's guess. Seay has been consistently very good for a few years now but has been used in a very limited role. Cruceta and Bautista are reclamation projects, as is Mantei. Bazardo looked quite good but with his sinker looks more like a starter to me. Plus he is in essence a rookie. Miner and Grilli both have some good stuff and both have been very inconsistent throughout their careers. This COULD be a good pen. If Jones slows down and Rodney, as usual, gets hurt, it could be awful. I'd like to see them add another arm. White Sox DFA'd David Aardsma which surprised me. He can bring it, although again he has been inconsistent. I guess something like 20 teams showed up to see Keith Foulke throw yesterday. Most good bullpens are assembled out of spare parts, but it takes a lot of tinkering to get it right. The Tigers need to do it quickly. This is currently not a very good pen. Start with the “sure things,” neither of which is too sure. Jones will just plain run out of gas one of these days. Hopefully not this year. He will undoubtedly have some bad stretches along with the good. Rodney has done little aside from 2006. If he can’t stay healthy he doesn’t help much. There is no point even thinking about Zumaya. Byrdak finally had a good year at 33; will he have another one? Anybody’s guess. Seay has been consistently very good for a few years now but has been used in a very limited role. Cruceta and Bautista are reclamation projects, as is Mantei. Bazardo looked quite good but with his sinker looks more like a starter to me. Plus he is in essence a rookie. Miner and Grilli both have some good stuff and both have been very inconsistent throughout their careers.

This COULD be a good pen. If Jones slows down and Rodney, as usual, gets hurt, it could be awful. I’d like to see them add another arm. White Sox DFA’d David Aardsma which surprised me. He can bring it, although again he has been inconsistent. I guess something like 20 teams showed up to see Keith Foulke throw yesterday.

Most good bullpens are assembled out of spare parts, but it takes a lot of tinkering to get it right. The Tigers need to do it quickly.

]]> By: Eric Cioe http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75978 Eric Cioe Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:09:56 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75978 Wait a second, Mark in Chicago. Let's talk about the stats regarding Grilli. IP: 79.2 H: 81 BB: 32 SO: 62 He's walking two guys every three innings. For a relief pitcher, that isn't bad. But he has more than a hit an inning. The problem isn't that he isn't "throwing strikes," but that he isn't throwing quality strikes. Now, I know you're remembering back to the playoffs in 2006, where he walked the bases loaded on 12 pitches, but this year's statistics don't show that at all. I think this whole "throwing strikes" business is a vast oversimplification of what good pitching is about. You have to throw good strikes, or you're going to get hit hard, like Grilli does. Wait a second, Mark in Chicago. Let’s talk about the stats regarding Grilli.

IP: 79.2
H: 81
BB: 32
SO: 62

He’s walking two guys every three innings. For a relief pitcher, that isn’t bad. But he has more than a hit an inning. The problem isn’t that he isn’t “throwing strikes,” but that he isn’t throwing quality strikes. Now, I know you’re remembering back to the playoffs in 2006, where he walked the bases loaded on 12 pitches, but this year’s statistics don’t show that at all.

I think this whole “throwing strikes” business is a vast oversimplification of what good pitching is about. You have to throw good strikes, or you’re going to get hit hard, like Grilli does.

]]> By: Mike Walshe http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75971 Mike Walshe Thu, 24 Jan 2008 23:34:35 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75971 The think the options are an important part of this discussion. It's a catch-22 situation really, the pitchers that are out of options aren't proven enough to be locks, but on the other hand are far too interesting to sneak through waivers, for example: Bautista - electric stuff Cruceta - Strikes out a load of people Bazardo - lots of groundballs I can't think of many clubs that would pass them up if they were DFAed now. Putting my cards on the table i say Bazardo makes it unless he bombs badly in ST. Cruceta and Bautista fight it out in ST, Tigers take the one that wins and if he bombs during the major league season, he gets dumped and miner gets the call. The think the options are an important part of this discussion.

It’s a catch-22 situation really, the pitchers that are out of options aren’t proven enough to be locks, but on the other hand are far too interesting to sneak through waivers, for example:

Bautista – electric stuff
Cruceta – Strikes out a load of people
Bazardo – lots of groundballs

I can’t think of many clubs that would pass them up if they were DFAed now.

Putting my cards on the table i say Bazardo makes it unless he bombs badly in ST.
Cruceta and Bautista fight it out in ST, Tigers take the one that wins and if he bombs during the major league season, he gets dumped and miner gets the call.

]]> By: Dave T. http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75969 Dave T. Thu, 24 Jan 2008 21:14:11 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75969 I think the bullpen will benefit from a healthy Kenny Rogers as well as the D-Train. Too many times last year the bullpen had to pitch part of the 6th, then 7-8-9. It was too much work. For being the last guy in the pen Grilli is not awful, but he is not much more than that. I think the bullpen will benefit from a healthy Kenny Rogers as well as the D-Train. Too many times last year the bullpen had to pitch part of the 6th, then 7-8-9. It was too much work. For being the last guy in the pen Grilli is not awful, but he is not much more than that.

]]> By: Mark in Chicago http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75968 Mark in Chicago Thu, 24 Jan 2008 20:50:27 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75968 My worry about this bullpen is whether it can consistently throws strikes. The talent is there, but when Grilli, Rodney, Miner, or Jones are bad, they are awful, and it's usually because they aren't throwing strikes. I have a funny feeling DD swings a trade during the spring to continue to try and address the bullpen, most likely someone with ML experience. I'm not saying anything major, but I suspect we'll add another arm to this conversation before April. My worry about this bullpen is whether it can consistently throws strikes. The talent is there, but when Grilli, Rodney, Miner, or Jones are bad, they are awful, and it’s usually because they aren’t throwing strikes.

I have a funny feeling DD swings a trade during the spring to continue to try and address the bullpen, most likely someone with ML experience. I’m not saying anything major, but I suspect we’ll add another arm to this conversation before April.

]]> By: Chris in Dallas http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75963 Chris in Dallas Thu, 24 Jan 2008 16:05:09 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75963 Based on performance, Miner certainly deserves to be with the big club. Having an option remaining definitely hurts him, as most of you seem to agree. Don't forget that he's also proven he can step in and start if necessary. Remember the game he started at Fenway last year (5.1 IP, 6H, 1 ER) and the adequate job he did in '06 filling in for Maroth. I think if Cruceta doesn't impress in Spring Training, Miner is the next in line. I think the Miner-for-Farnsworth deal is one of the better ones that Dave Dombrowski has made in his Detroit tenure. I like Bazardo pretty much as well. The Derek Lowe comparison fits, I'd say. Of course it is against the rules of sports journalism to compare a person of color to a white guy, but I digress. He should do fine out of the 'pen. Grilli is a favorite whipping boy for many fans, but he's better than he gets credit for. Kind of weird how he crapped the bed at home, but was great on the road. Check out his splits: http://www.baseball-reference.com/pi/psplit.cgi?n1=grillja01&year=2007 As an added note, I'd like to tell Jose Canseco to shut up already. Based on performance, Miner certainly deserves to be with the big club. Having an option remaining definitely hurts him, as most of you seem to agree. Don’t forget that he’s also proven he can step in and start if necessary. Remember the game he started at Fenway last year (5.1 IP, 6H, 1 ER) and the adequate job he did in ’06 filling in for Maroth. I think if Cruceta doesn’t impress in Spring Training, Miner is the next in line. I think the Miner-for-Farnsworth deal is one of the better ones that Dave Dombrowski has made in his Detroit tenure.

I like Bazardo pretty much as well. The Derek Lowe comparison fits, I’d say. Of course it is against the rules of sports journalism to compare a person of color to a white guy, but I digress. He should do fine out of the ‘pen. Grilli is a favorite whipping boy for many fans, but he’s better than he gets credit for. Kind of weird how he crapped the bed at home, but was great on the road. Check out his splits:

http://www.baseball-reference......;year=2007

As an added note, I’d like to tell Jose Canseco to shut up already.

]]> By: Ryan http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75961 Ryan Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:53:27 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75961 This all sounds about right. Which means another year of watching Grilli be a human accelerant while Miner languishes in Toledo. Now that Big Red is gone... FREE ZACH MINER! This all sounds about right. Which means another year of watching Grilli be a human accelerant while Miner languishes in Toledo. Now that Big Red is gone…

FREE ZACH MINER!

]]> By: Chris in Nashville http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75960 Chris in Nashville Thu, 24 Jan 2008 15:15:34 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75960 This is why I love this site. I didn't realize Miner had options left. I think at the end of the day, Miner will end up on the team when it matters. I'm still not that comfortable with this bullpen. It had it's problems for most of last year (I think it's the reason we ended up watching other teams play in the playoffs instead of the Tigers) and I don't think they did enough to address the problems, in fact, you could make the argument that it's worse with the loss of Zumaya. I hope Crucerta and/or Bautista can prove me wrong, but we are pinning a lot of hopes on a few very unproven guys at the MLB level. No matter how good or offense is, and it will be special, you know we are going to need that bullpen to slam the door shut. I just don't have that feeling with this group. I still think they need to pick up another arm for the pen in the chance Zumaya doesn't make it back this season. If he does, more the merrier. This is why I love this site. I didn’t realize Miner had options left. I think at the end of the day, Miner will end up on the team when it matters. I’m still not that comfortable with this bullpen. It had it’s problems for most of last year (I think it’s the reason we ended up watching other teams play in the playoffs instead of the Tigers) and I don’t think they did enough to address the problems, in fact, you could make the argument that it’s worse with the loss of Zumaya. I hope Crucerta and/or Bautista can prove me wrong, but we are pinning a lot of hopes on a few very unproven guys at the MLB level.

No matter how good or offense is, and it will be special, you know we are going to need that bullpen to slam the door shut. I just don’t have that feeling with this group. I still think they need to pick up another arm for the pen in the chance Zumaya doesn’t make it back this season. If he does, more the merrier.

]]> By: Mike G http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75958 Mike G Thu, 24 Jan 2008 14:34:47 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/the-full-pen/#comment-75958 One thing about Grilli last year, is that he was very good when we needed him to be. He did an excellent job keeping us in a few games where the starter had to leave early, and was solid on many other important occasions. His bad games were almost always when we were already behind and he would just get crushed putting the game a bit far out of reach. Overall he was very good when we needed him to be, and he probably deserves a spot unless Bautista is awesome in the spring. One thing about Grilli last year, is that he was very good when we needed him to be. He did an excellent job keeping us in a few games where the starter had to leave early, and was solid on many other important occasions. His bad games were almost always when we were already behind and he would just get crushed putting the game a bit far out of reach.

Overall he was very good when we needed him to be, and he probably deserves a spot unless Bautista is awesome in the spring.

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