Comments on: Back-up plans http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Why Ramon Santiago http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-76489 The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Why Ramon Santiago Wed, 13 Feb 2008 02:27:44 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-76489 [...] already looked at the roster crunch and when I drew up my bench it was pretty easy to leave Santiago in Toledo. The Tigers have a back [...] [...] already looked at the roster crunch and when I drew up my bench it was pretty easy to leave Santiago in Toledo. The Tigers have a back [...]

]]> By: Mark L http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75954 Mark L Thu, 24 Jan 2008 07:19:52 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75954 Thread is old and probably nobody will read my comment now, but hey, why not? All things being equal, I prefer to keep Santiago in Detroit, Raburn in Toledo. Here's why. Let's say Santiago is the glove man, Raburn the bat man. We shouldn't really need any late-inning pinch-hitter (maybe a lefty would be nice, but Raburn is not that) A 9th-inning defensive replacement, however, may be nice. I don't see anyone else on the team being a viable backup shortstop. Guillen may be emergency-only. We'll see. I think Santiago is faster than Raburn, so he good run for guys like Maggs, Thames, Cabrera, Wilson. Santiago is a good bunter, and once a while in a close game, a bunt is exactly what is called for. So I conclude that Santiago would be more useful as 25th man than Raburn. Raburn is better off getting playing time and improving in Toledo until the inevitable injury. If anyone besides a catcher is injured, he will be called up. I think that's pretty certain, especially for Sheffield. Cabrera would become DH, Inge to third, and Raburn sub-utility man. However, if we have to pass Raburn through waivers, I say just keep him in Detroit. If he falters, we can probably slide him through. Best-case: trade Thames or Inge for a quality reliever, but that's not going to happen unless DD has incriminating photos of another GM. Thread is old and probably nobody will read my comment now, but hey, why not?
All things being equal, I prefer to keep Santiago in Detroit, Raburn in Toledo. Here’s why.
Let’s say Santiago is the glove man, Raburn the bat man. We shouldn’t really need any late-inning pinch-hitter (maybe a lefty would be nice, but Raburn is not that) A 9th-inning defensive replacement, however, may be nice. I don’t see anyone else on the team being a viable backup shortstop. Guillen may be emergency-only. We’ll see.
I think Santiago is faster than Raburn, so he good run for guys like Maggs, Thames, Cabrera, Wilson.
Santiago is a good bunter, and once a while in a close game, a bunt is exactly what is called for.
So I conclude that Santiago would be more useful as 25th man than Raburn. Raburn is better off getting playing time and improving in Toledo until the inevitable injury. If anyone besides a catcher is injured, he will be called up. I think that’s pretty certain, especially for Sheffield. Cabrera would become DH, Inge to third, and Raburn sub-utility man.
However, if we have to pass Raburn through waivers, I say just keep him in Detroit. If he falters, we can probably slide him through.
Best-case: trade Thames or Inge for a quality reliever, but that’s not going to happen unless DD has incriminating photos of another GM.

]]> By: David http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75933 David Wed, 23 Jan 2008 05:12:09 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75933 Guys I could be wrong but I already think Dave said that they most likely would be taking (Inge and Wilson of course) Thames and Santiago B/c Santiago is out of options and Raburn isn't I forgot where I saw it (it was either in an article or on vid right about the time of the Tiger-fest Tough Tough choices they all deserve a spot - chances that one of our players will get injured in ST or April (I don't want it to happen but it prolly will) Guys I could be wrong but I already think

Dave said that they most likely would be taking (Inge and Wilson of course) Thames and Santiago

B/c Santiago is out of options and Raburn isn’t

I forgot where I saw it (it was either in an article or on vid right about the time of the Tiger-fest

Tough Tough choices they all deserve a spot – chances that one of our players will get injured in ST or April (I don’t want it to happen but it prolly will)

]]> By: Mike R http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75929 Mike R Wed, 23 Jan 2008 03:21:18 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75929 <blockquote>Mike - I’ll give you that Raburn probably isn’t a 119 OPS+ player, but Santiago’s 2007 was probably more of an outlier with his 87 OPS+. For his career he’s a 63 OPS+ so I don’t think his glove can trump even an average player. Plus, I don’t know how good Santiago is defensively. Deryl mentioned that PMR had him a little below average. UZR data from 2003 to the mid point of 2007 has him at -23 runs per 150 games as a shortstop which is actually pretty bad (Carlos Guillen was -8 over the same time period). Sample size is always an issue for Santiago so a grain of salt is in order. I don’t disagree that he looks smooth in the field and he’s got a strong arm, but he doesn’t fare well on range.</blockquote> Good stuff. I hadn't looked at Santiago's numbers yet. With the info that Raburn would have to pass through waivers since it's more then 3 years since his MLB debut, I'd say he has to stay. I'm not advocating for Santiago, just saying that I think a lot of Tigers fans are starting to get a bit disillusioned about what Raburn can do in the majors similar to what Clevlen showed at the end of 06 (Note: Not comparing the two since Raburn has hit at more then one level of pro ball where as Clevlen has had 1 good minor league year in Double-A where I think he was repeating the level).

Mike – I’ll give you that Raburn probably isn’t a 119 OPS+ player, but Santiago’s 2007 was probably more of an outlier with his 87 OPS+. For his career he’s a 63 OPS+ so I don’t think his glove can trump even an average player.

Plus, I don’t know how good Santiago is defensively. Deryl mentioned that PMR had him a little below average. UZR data from 2003 to the mid point of 2007 has him at -23 runs per 150 games as a shortstop which is actually pretty bad (Carlos Guillen was -8 over the same time period). Sample size is always an issue for Santiago so a grain of salt is in order.

I don’t disagree that he looks smooth in the field and he’s got a strong arm, but he doesn’t fare well on range.

Good stuff. I hadn’t looked at Santiago’s numbers yet. With the info that Raburn would have to pass through waivers since it’s more then 3 years since his MLB debut, I’d say he has to stay. I’m not advocating for Santiago, just saying that I think a lot of Tigers fans are starting to get a bit disillusioned about what Raburn can do in the majors similar to what Clevlen showed at the end of 06 (Note: Not comparing the two since Raburn has hit at more then one level of pro ball where as Clevlen has had 1 good minor league year in Double-A where I think he was repeating the level).

]]> By: Steve in Kzoo http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75927 Steve in Kzoo Wed, 23 Jan 2008 02:17:49 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75927 Well to be honest here, The Tigers will definitely take 2 of those players with ease out of Lakeland. 1. Brandon Inge, needs to increase his trade value for the trade deadline. Will be the backup catcher if Wilson is back on DL. Also Inge is a super utility guy and could be a valuable asset for the Tigers considering we have many who are old players who might need to visit the DL this season. 2. Marcus Thames, he will easily be platooning with Jaques Jones when facing lefties. Marcus will also be at least I think so continuing to platoon for Carlos at 1B but less then last year. With Carlos being a switch hitter theres no need for a platoon but with Carlos maybe needing a rest for his knees Marcus is a suitable option at 1B. The third is a hard option, Go with speedster Guzman, go with uber utility guy Raburn or do you go with your switch hitting ultra defensemen of Santiago. That will the tough choice. My choices: 1. Vance Wilson 2. Brandon Inge 3. Marcus Thames 4. Romon Santiago Well to be honest here, The Tigers will definitely take 2 of those players with ease out of Lakeland.

1. Brandon Inge, needs to increase his trade value for the trade deadline. Will be the backup catcher if Wilson is back on DL. Also Inge is a super utility guy and could be a valuable asset for the Tigers considering we have many who are old players who might need to visit the DL this season.

2. Marcus Thames, he will easily be platooning with Jaques Jones when facing lefties. Marcus will also be at least I think so continuing to platoon for Carlos at 1B but less then last year. With Carlos being a switch hitter theres no need for a platoon but with Carlos maybe needing a rest for his knees Marcus is a suitable option at 1B.

The third is a hard option, Go with speedster Guzman, go with uber utility guy Raburn or do you go with your switch hitting ultra defensemen of Santiago. That will the tough choice.

My choices:
1. Vance Wilson
2. Brandon Inge
3. Marcus Thames
4. Romon Santiago

]]> By: billfer http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75925 billfer Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:28:51 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75925 Mike - I'll give you that Raburn probably isn't a 119 OPS+ player, but Santiago's 2007 was probably more of an outlier with his 87 OPS+. For his career he's a 63 OPS+ so I don't think his glove can trump even an average player. Plus, I don't know how good Santiago is defensively. Deryl mentioned that PMR had him a little below average. UZR data from 2003 to the mid point of 2007 has him at -23 runs per 150 games as a shortstop which is actually pretty bad (Carlos Guillen was -8 over the same time period). Sample size is always an issue for Santiago so a grain of salt is in order. I don't disagree that he looks smooth in the field and he's got a strong arm, but he doesn't fare well on range. Mike – I’ll give you that Raburn probably isn’t a 119 OPS+ player, but Santiago’s 2007 was probably more of an outlier with his 87 OPS+. For his career he’s a 63 OPS+ so I don’t think his glove can trump even an average player.

Plus, I don’t know how good Santiago is defensively. Deryl mentioned that PMR had him a little below average. UZR data from 2003 to the mid point of 2007 has him at -23 runs per 150 games as a shortstop which is actually pretty bad (Carlos Guillen was -8 over the same time period). Sample size is always an issue for Santiago so a grain of salt is in order.

I don’t disagree that he looks smooth in the field and he’s got a strong arm, but he doesn’t fare well on range.

]]> By: Mike R http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75923 Mike R Wed, 23 Jan 2008 01:05:24 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75923 I think some people are getting a bit enamored with Raburn and his .304/.340/.507 line last year. I doubt he'll repeat that, as I think he's more of an average big leaguer. So when discussing his bat versus Santiago's glove, the disparity that Santiago's defense has to make up isn't as big because Ryan Raburn simply isn't a 119 OPS+ player, in my opinion. I think some people are getting a bit enamored with Raburn and his .304/.340/.507 line last year. I doubt he’ll repeat that, as I think he’s more of an average big leaguer. So when discussing his bat versus Santiago’s glove, the disparity that Santiago’s defense has to make up isn’t as big because Ryan Raburn simply isn’t a 119 OPS+ player, in my opinion.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75918 Kathy Tue, 22 Jan 2008 22:25:51 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75918 Since I'm out of the loop and don't know who Michael Richards is I'll give you the benefit of the doubt but if Timo is out there in spring training and fielding and hitting like he did at the end of the season, I know who I'd pick. Oh,......now I remember. That Michael Richards, the comedian. Hah! You got me on that one. Since I’m out of the loop and don’t know who Michael Richards is I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt but if Timo is out there in spring training and fielding and hitting like he did at the end of the season, I know who I’d pick. Oh,……now I remember. That Michael Richards, the comedian. Hah! You got me on that one.

]]> By: Chris in Dallas http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75917 Chris in Dallas Tue, 22 Jan 2008 20:13:03 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75917 Eh. Timo had a nice September but his big league track record is kind of underwhelming. Aside from batting average, Inge and Perez are pretty similar except that Inge plays superior defense and can actually hit the ball out of the ballpark from time to time. In 8 total seasons, Timo has fewer HR (26) than Inge had in 2006 (27). Again, Perez played very well in his September cameo but his chances of making this team are about as good as Michael Richards' chances of hosting the NAACP Awards. Eh. Timo had a nice September but his big league track record is kind of underwhelming. Aside from batting average, Inge and Perez are pretty similar except that Inge plays superior defense and can actually hit the ball out of the ballpark from time to time. In 8 total seasons, Timo has fewer HR (26) than Inge had in 2006 (27). Again, Perez played very well in his September cameo but his chances of making this team are about as good as Michael Richards’ chances of hosting the NAACP Awards.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75916 Kathy Tue, 22 Jan 2008 19:11:28 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75916 I'll tell 'ya one thing......if I have to choose between Timo and Brandon in LF, it sure won't be Brandon and that goes for RF as well. I’ll tell ‘ya one thing……if I have to choose between Timo and Brandon in LF, it sure won’t be Brandon and that goes for RF as well.

]]> By: Deryl G http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75915 Deryl G Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:57:09 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75915 I don't have access to any other advanced metric, but PMR has Santiago and Renteria as slightly below average at SS. I don’t have access to any other advanced metric, but PMR has Santiago and Renteria as slightly below average at SS.

]]> By: Kyle J http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75914 Kyle J Tue, 22 Jan 2008 18:35:23 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75914 That was a .272 for Raburn's batting avg. That was a .272 for Raburn’s batting avg.

]]> By: Chris in Dallas http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75912 Chris in Dallas Tue, 22 Jan 2008 16:09:13 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75912 I don't think Renteria's defense is really all that it's cracked up to be. To me it seems as if he's living off his reputation more than anything else at this point. To wit - Renteria's Range Factor was only 4.14 (21st among MLB SS) and his Zone Rating was .800 (18th). Comparatively, Carlos Guillen came in at 4.29 and .807. I realize that these aren't the be-all and end-all of fielding stats, but you would hope that the guy replacing Carlos would, you know, have better range than him. I for one get the willies every time Guillen tries to make a play in the hole. Renteria will be more of the same, and perhaps a little bit worse considering Miguel Cabrera will be manning the hot corner. That guy gets his uniform washed in concrete before every game. (By the way - Santiago's RF and ZR were 4.40 and .855 in a limited '07 sample) I don’t think Renteria’s defense is really all that it’s cracked up to be. To me it seems as if he’s living off his reputation more than anything else at this point. To wit – Renteria’s Range Factor was only 4.14 (21st among MLB SS) and his Zone Rating was .800 (18th). Comparatively, Carlos Guillen came in at 4.29 and .807. I realize that these aren’t the be-all and end-all of fielding stats, but you would hope that the guy replacing Carlos would, you know, have better range than him. I for one get the willies every time Guillen tries to make a play in the hole. Renteria will be more of the same, and perhaps a little bit worse considering Miguel Cabrera will be manning the hot corner. That guy gets his uniform washed in concrete before every game. (By the way – Santiago’s RF and ZR were 4.40 and .855 in a limited ’07 sample)

]]> By: Deryl G http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75907 Deryl G Tue, 22 Jan 2008 14:11:31 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75907 Ryan Raburn's OPS+ last year: 119 Ramon Santiago's: 87 That has to be one heck of a glove to overcome that. And as for the defensive substitution, I don't see Santiago coming in for Renteria late in games. Renteria's defense is fine and if the game gets tied up you can't bring him back in. There has to be a pretty monsterous gap in defensive skill to justify bring a defensive sub. Ryan Raburn’s OPS+ last year: 119
Ramon Santiago’s: 87

That has to be one heck of a glove to overcome that. And as for the defensive substitution, I don’t see Santiago coming in for Renteria late in games. Renteria’s defense is fine and if the game gets tied up you can’t bring him back in. There has to be a pretty monsterous gap in defensive skill to justify bring a defensive sub.

]]> By: Kyle J http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75906 Kyle J Tue, 22 Jan 2008 13:38:52 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2008/01/back-up-plans/#comment-75906 You certainly don't want to give Raburn up on waivers. He could be your starting LF of the future. 26, athletic, versatile, .722.358/.489 career minor league hitter. You certainly don’t want to give Raburn up on waivers. He could be your starting LF of the future. 26, athletic, versatile, .722.358/.489 career minor league hitter.

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