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	<title>Comments on: Outfield Park Factors part 2</title>
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	<description>News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball</description>
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		<title>By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dontrelle plus 3</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75223</link>
		<dc:creator>The Detroit Tiger Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Dontrelle plus 3</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 04:00:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75223</guid>
		<description>[...] Outfield Park Factors part 2 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Outfield Park Factors part 2 [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Ken from Cincinnati</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75222</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken from Cincinnati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2007 03:30:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75222</guid>
		<description>Very nice explanations to my question, guys.  That&#039;s what is sweet about this blog.  There are so many absurdly knowledgeable bloggers to answer my curiosities.  You think you know a lot about baseball, and then you find out there are intricacies you had never thought of.  Thanks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very nice explanations to my question, guys.  That&#8217;s what is sweet about this blog.  There are so many absurdly knowledgeable bloggers to answer my curiosities.  You think you know a lot about baseball, and then you find out there are intricacies you had never thought of.  Thanks.</p>
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		<title>By: David</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75218</link>
		<dc:creator>David</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 20:24:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75218</guid>
		<description>Nice points Lee

To add on to that

1) Since balls were kept in play they became soft and also they were filed/spit on thrown around the infield and scuffed up just to make the ball harder to see and have the pitch move erratically through the strike zone

If they moved erratically through the strike zone and were brownish black my guess is they wouldn&#039;t be easy to field either.

Also the equipment they used at the time (their spikes and mitts) were of inferior quality - which also didn&#039;t make it easier


The parks - yes much larger with bigger gaps 

Some that come to mind are

South End Grounds
Old Fenway
West Side Grounds
Polo Grounds
Hilltop Park
Huntington Avenue Baseball Grounds


Also to add onto your other small ball point


In &quot;Ty Cobb&quot; - by Al Stump he mentions numerous times that the game has changed

In the early days the game was much different that it is today (today being 1940-1960)

You could go on and on about it but position players were selected on defense/speed/contact/eye


David Eckstein is a good example of what most ball clubs would have been looking for

Players rarely ever swung and missed (compared to today) while using inferior and heavy bats

They bunted and worked on speed rather than swinging for the fences - if the ball happened to get past the fielder then it was usually a triple



Players had to be smart and had to steal and be fast - therefore it leads me to believe that most were fast enough to hit triples with regularity - there were no Sean Casey’s or David Ortiz’s</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice points Lee</p>
<p>To add on to that</p>
<p>1) Since balls were kept in play they became soft and also they were filed/spit on thrown around the infield and scuffed up just to make the ball harder to see and have the pitch move erratically through the strike zone</p>
<p>If they moved erratically through the strike zone and were brownish black my guess is they wouldn&#8217;t be easy to field either.</p>
<p>Also the equipment they used at the time (their spikes and mitts) were of inferior quality &#8211; which also didn&#8217;t make it easier</p>
<p>The parks &#8211; yes much larger with bigger gaps </p>
<p>Some that come to mind are</p>
<p>South End Grounds<br />
Old Fenway<br />
West Side Grounds<br />
Polo Grounds<br />
Hilltop Park<br />
Huntington Avenue Baseball Grounds</p>
<p>Also to add onto your other small ball point</p>
<p>In &#8220;Ty Cobb&#8221; &#8211; by Al Stump he mentions numerous times that the game has changed</p>
<p>In the early days the game was much different that it is today (today being 1940-1960)</p>
<p>You could go on and on about it but position players were selected on defense/speed/contact/eye</p>
<p>David Eckstein is a good example of what most ball clubs would have been looking for</p>
<p>Players rarely ever swung and missed (compared to today) while using inferior and heavy bats</p>
<p>They bunted and worked on speed rather than swinging for the fences &#8211; if the ball happened to get past the fielder then it was usually a triple</p>
<p>Players had to be smart and had to steal and be fast &#8211; therefore it leads me to believe that most were fast enough to hit triples with regularity &#8211; there were no Sean Casey’s or David Ortiz’s</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Panas</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75217</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Panas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:35:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75217</guid>
		<description>A couple more reasons:

(1) Sometimes balls hit into fans standing in the outfield were ruled ground rule triples. The home team would make the ground rules before the game and the Tigers, in particular, took advantage of Cobb&#039;s and Crawford&#039;s ability to hit the ball into the crowd.  

(2) Balls were kept in play for over 100 pitches so they became soft.  That combined with the deep fences made swinging for distance a poor option so there was a lot of small ball.  Outfielders would play shallow and balls that were hit well would land over their heads for triples.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A couple more reasons:</p>
<p>(1) Sometimes balls hit into fans standing in the outfield were ruled ground rule triples. The home team would make the ground rules before the game and the Tigers, in particular, took advantage of Cobb&#8217;s and Crawford&#8217;s ability to hit the ball into the crowd.  </p>
<p>(2) Balls were kept in play for over 100 pitches so they became soft.  That combined with the deep fences made swinging for distance a poor option so there was a lot of small ball.  Outfielders would play shallow and balls that were hit well would land over their heads for triples.</p>
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		<title>By: Rings</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75216</link>
		<dc:creator>Rings</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:19:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75216</guid>
		<description>Two other factors on the pre-30&#039;s triples totals:

* many parks were very irregular (Polo Grounds, etc.), leading to long distances to run or &quot;funny&quot; bounces off the fence 
* many parks/fields &lt;i&gt;did not have fences&lt;/i&gt; up until the era from 1900 to the mid-20&#039;s, often with spectators surrounding the field of play and in the outfield. In addition to the rough outfield conditions, many defensive outfielders would have to contend with spectator interference (particularly on the road).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two other factors on the pre-30&#8217;s triples totals:</p>
<p>* many parks were very irregular (Polo Grounds, etc.), leading to long distances to run or &#8220;funny&#8221; bounces off the fence<br />
* many parks/fields <i>did not have fences</i> up until the era from 1900 to the mid-20&#8217;s, often with spectators surrounding the field of play and in the outfield. In addition to the rough outfield conditions, many defensive outfielders would have to contend with spectator interference (particularly on the road).</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Panas</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75215</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Panas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75215</guid>
		<description>Chris, I also like the dimensions the way they are.  Watching outfielders chase fly balls, outfielders making throws and runners legging out doubles and triples is more exciting to me than watching cheap home runs.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris, I also like the dimensions the way they are.  Watching outfielders chase fly balls, outfielders making throws and runners legging out doubles and triples is more exciting to me than watching cheap home runs.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee Panas</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75214</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee Panas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:07:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75214</guid>
		<description>Granderson had arguably the second best triples season of all time in 2007.  If you subtract the league average from each player&#039;s triples, Grandy finishes second behind Chief Wilson.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Granderson had arguably the second best triples season of all time in 2007.  If you subtract the league average from each player&#8217;s triples, Grandy finishes second behind Chief Wilson.</p>
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		<title>By: Scott</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75213</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 18:59:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75213</guid>
		<description>Breaking News - ESPN is reporting Tigers are going to sign Dontrelle Willis to a 3-year, $29 million extension.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Breaking News &#8211; ESPN is reporting Tigers are going to sign Dontrelle Willis to a 3-year, $29 million extension.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris in Nashville</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75210</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris in Nashville</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 16:17:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75210</guid>
		<description>Excellent point there Mark, I haven&#039;t heard that before.

This was a great post Bilfer, really enjoyed these.  I know there is always talk about moving the fences in more, but I personally like having a ballpark that is different than any other ball park, especially in the dimensions.  They needed to move in the LF for sure originally, and did that, I hope it stays the way it is. Watching a game in some of the newer stadiums, Philly, Houston and Cincy especially looks like they are playing on a softball field.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent point there Mark, I haven&#8217;t heard that before.</p>
<p>This was a great post Bilfer, really enjoyed these.  I know there is always talk about moving the fences in more, but I personally like having a ballpark that is different than any other ball park, especially in the dimensions.  They needed to move in the LF for sure originally, and did that, I hope it stays the way it is. Watching a game in some of the newer stadiums, Philly, Houston and Cincy especially looks like they are playing on a softball field.</p>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75208</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 15:08:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75208</guid>
		<description>My Grandfather was born in 1901.   He passed away in 1978, but he worked with a couple of the Tiger players during the winters in the offseason.   He continued a friendship with one of them into the early 60&#039;s.    The way he told it, the difference in conditions of the outfield playing surface between the pre-30&#039;s and post 40&#039;s was like night and day.    He said the infields were very similar to those of today (60&#039;s) but the outfields were equivalent to that of a school yard ballfield.  Maybe official scorers were less likely to give errors due to the condition of the fields(?) and more singles, doubles turned into triples/inside the parkers.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My Grandfather was born in 1901.   He passed away in 1978, but he worked with a couple of the Tiger players during the winters in the offseason.   He continued a friendship with one of them into the early 60&#8217;s.    The way he told it, the difference in conditions of the outfield playing surface between the pre-30&#8217;s and post 40&#8217;s was like night and day.    He said the infields were very similar to those of today (60&#8217;s) but the outfields were equivalent to that of a school yard ballfield.  Maybe official scorers were less likely to give errors due to the condition of the fields(?) and more singles, doubles turned into triples/inside the parkers.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken in Cincinnati</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75207</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken in Cincinnati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:36:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75207</guid>
		<description>Just answered my own question.  He is 27th on the all time list with 23 hit last year.  13 away from Chief Wilson who hit 36 in 1912.  One interesting note: there is not one player above him on the list that achieved their feet after 1930!  13 players ahead of Granderson achieved their feet in the 1800&#039;s.   If you look through the first 200 players, there are literally only a couple that play modern day baseball.  Hence we can legitimately call Granderson the best triples hitter over the last 70 years.  Does anybody have any theories as to why it was absurdly less difficult to hit for three bases back then.  I&#039;m guessing players weren&#039;t any faster.  In fact, they were probably slower.  Were throwing arms that much worse?  Were stadiums larger?  I don&#039;t think so...... I&#039;m guessing defensive prowess has just improved by droves, while speed has improved only incrementally.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just answered my own question.  He is 27th on the all time list with 23 hit last year.  13 away from Chief Wilson who hit 36 in 1912.  One interesting note: there is not one player above him on the list that achieved their feet after 1930!  13 players ahead of Granderson achieved their feet in the 1800&#8217;s.   If you look through the first 200 players, there are literally only a couple that play modern day baseball.  Hence we can legitimately call Granderson the best triples hitter over the last 70 years.  Does anybody have any theories as to why it was absurdly less difficult to hit for three bases back then.  I&#8217;m guessing players weren&#8217;t any faster.  In fact, they were probably slower.  Were throwing arms that much worse?  Were stadiums larger?  I don&#8217;t think so&#8230;&#8230; I&#8217;m guessing defensive prowess has just improved by droves, while speed has improved only incrementally.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken in Cincinnati</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75206</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken in Cincinnati</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 13:17:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75206</guid>
		<description>I can&#039;t quite remember: Did Granderson come close to breaking the all-time record for triples?  I know he was chasing it down at one point.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can&#8217;t quite remember: Did Granderson come close to breaking the all-time record for triples?  I know he was chasing it down at one point.</p>
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		<title>By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Comerica Park&#8217;s outfield is so big&#8230;</title>
		<link>http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75205</link>
		<dc:creator>The Detroit Tiger Weblog &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Comerica Park&#8217;s outfield is so big&#8230;</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2007 12:10:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/12/outfield-park-factors-part-2/#comment-75205</guid>
		<description>[...] Outfield Park Factors part 2 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Outfield Park Factors part 2 [...]</p>
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