Comments on: To Pudge or not to Pudge http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 19 Mar 2010 13:59:57 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Tigers Pick Up Pudges Option - Page 3 - SpartanTailgate.com - Michigan State Spartans Forums http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-72033 Tigers Pick Up Pudges Option - Page 3 - SpartanTailgate.com - Michigan State Spartans Forums Tue, 09 Oct 2007 22:57:10 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-72033 [...] Originally Posted by Heathens '87 We might like to think that there are contracts extended out of loyalty, but this is professional sports and it just doesn't work that way. Pudge got extended because he's the best option available at the best price to help the Tigers win in 2008. The only other reason a team would sign an aging player is because he puts people in the seats. The Tigers took a look around and decided a top-line catcher for $10-million was a fair price. Pudge got extended as a result........ I think owners are more loyal than they think, at least some owners with some players. Illich has a history of being "in love" with some players, such as Pudge and Mags. Also, Pudge came to Detroit when no one else wanted to and started the team's turn around. So, I think that plays a factor in it. However, if there was a great option out there, the Tigers would have gone that route. But, like you said, there's no other good option and the fans love Pudge, so it isn't that big of a surprise. There's a great post about this (from a few weeks ago) here: The Detroit Tiger Weblog [...] Originally Posted by Heathens ‘87 We might like to think that there are contracts extended out of loyalty, but this is professional sports and it just doesn’t work that way. Pudge got extended because he’s the best option available at the best price to help the Tigers win in 2008. The only other reason a team would sign an aging player is because he puts people in the seats. The Tigers took a look around and decided a top-line catcher for $10-million was a fair price. Pudge got extended as a result…….. I think owners are more loyal than they think, at least some owners with some players. Illich has a history of being “in love” with some players, such as Pudge and Mags. Also, Pudge came to Detroit when no one else wanted to and started the team’s turn around. So, I think that plays a factor in it. However, if there was a great option out there, the Tigers would have gone that route. But, like you said, there’s no other good option and the fans love Pudge, so it isn’t that big of a surprise. There’s a great post about this (from a few weeks ago) here: The Detroit Tiger Weblog

]]> By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Tigers pick up Pudge’s option http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71996 The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Tigers pick up Pudge’s option Tue, 09 Oct 2007 15:50:02 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71996 [...] I already wrote up my thoughts on the matter. [...] [...] I already wrote up my thoughts on the matter. [...]

]]> By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Breaking down the Dombrowski pow-wow http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71448 The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Breaking down the Dombrowski pow-wow Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:08:48 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71448 [...] Mark P.: Mike R - I couldn&#8217 ;t agree more. The 7th and 8th inning are... [...] [...] Mark P.: Mike R – I couldn&#8217 ;t agree more. The 7th and 8th inning are… [...]

]]> By: Mark P. http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71445 Mark P. Tue, 02 Oct 2007 02:00:07 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71445 Mike R - I couldn't agree more. The 7th and 8th inning are the most important innings in baseball. I want my two best relievers pitching those innings. I am not saying that we need to resign Jones, though I would not mind it. I would rather have Zumaya in 7th and 8th next year than closing. How many 8th innings games did we lose this year? I agree with Bilfer about picking up the option for Pudge. Who else is out there? How many trades can DD pull off (C & SS)? Mike R – I couldn’t agree more. The 7th and 8th inning are the most important innings in baseball. I want my two best relievers pitching those innings. I am not saying that we need to resign Jones, though I would not mind it. I would rather have Zumaya in 7th and 8th next year than closing. How many 8th innings games did we lose this year?

I agree with Bilfer about picking up the option for Pudge. Who else is out there? How many trades can DD pull off (C & SS)?

]]> By: Mike R http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71444 Mike R Tue, 02 Oct 2007 00:53:20 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71444 Disagree whole-heartedly. You can be fine with a non-dominating closer stuff-wise. Jones coming back for another year and leaving Rodney/Zumaya in the 7th/8th innings where there's a ton more opportunities in which their skills are utilized the best, is far more important then locking down that 9th inning. Disagree whole-heartedly. You can be fine with a non-dominating closer stuff-wise. Jones coming back for another year and leaving Rodney/Zumaya in the 7th/8th innings where there’s a ton more opportunities in which their skills are utilized the best, is far more important then locking down that 9th inning.

]]> By: Eric Cioe http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71442 Eric Cioe Tue, 02 Oct 2007 00:46:57 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71442 You can't imagine Jones not closing a ballgame for the Tigers? I can. Maybe my fingernails will get a chance to grow next season. If Zumaya can get better control, he'll be great to close. If he needs another year as a setup guy, then put Rodney in. I think the best thing for the back end of this bullpen (eventually) is to have Zumaya close, with Rodney and Seay setting the table. You can’t imagine Jones not closing a ballgame for the Tigers? I can. Maybe my fingernails will get a chance to grow next season.

If Zumaya can get better control, he’ll be great to close. If he needs another year as a setup guy, then put Rodney in.

I think the best thing for the back end of this bullpen (eventually) is to have Zumaya close, with Rodney and Seay setting the table.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71441 Kathy Tue, 02 Oct 2007 00:41:03 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71441 No Pudge? No Jonsey either. It's hard for me to imagine anyone else but Pudge catching for Jones to close a game. No Pudge? No Jonsey either. It’s hard for me to imagine anyone else but Pudge catching for Jones to close a game.

]]> By: Mike R http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71440 Mike R Tue, 02 Oct 2007 00:14:45 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71440 Loyalty shouldn't play a role in this at all. Loyalty generally leads to bad business and Ivan Rodriguez for $10 million next year is bad business no matter how you slice it. If he's willing to get bought out and resign for say, $4-5 million then I can swallow that pill a little easier. Otherwise, there are catchers we can get to offer a sub .300 OBP, and near a .400 slugging for half the cost of I-Rod. Loyalty shouldn’t play a role in this at all. Loyalty generally leads to bad business and Ivan Rodriguez for $10 million next year is bad business no matter how you slice it. If he’s willing to get bought out and resign for say, $4-5 million then I can swallow that pill a little easier. Otherwise, there are catchers we can get to offer a sub .300 OBP, and near a .400 slugging for half the cost of I-Rod.

]]> By: Brian Dukeman http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71438 Brian Dukeman Mon, 01 Oct 2007 23:24:02 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71438 I don't usually post. But I think the Tigers should exercise their option on Pudge. I know 13 million is a lot for an aging catcher on the downside of his career, but, he has experience. He still calls good ball games. He still knows the pitching staff, even it was held together by duck tape and wire, but considering he has done a good job. Also, Rabelo would benefit the most from it. I think doing is doing both the present and the future a favor. Also, remember the Tigers took a risk signing him, which did payoff in two seasons above .500 and a pennant. Just some thoughts from a non poster. I don’t usually post. But I think the Tigers should exercise their option on Pudge. I know 13 million is a lot for an aging catcher on the downside of his career, but, he has experience. He still calls good ball games. He still knows the pitching staff, even it was held together by duck tape and wire, but considering he has done a good job. Also, Rabelo would benefit the most from it. I think doing is doing both the present and the future a favor. Also, remember the Tigers took a risk signing him, which did payoff in two seasons above .500 and a pennant. Just some thoughts from a non poster.

]]> By: Jim http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71434 Jim Mon, 01 Oct 2007 22:06:11 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71434 Just so everyone knows, that is not me looking to get Salty. I know that won't happen. Just so everyone knows, that is not me looking to get Salty. I know that won’t happen.

]]> By: don http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71430 don Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:37:48 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71430 There are a few different dynamics here, I think it helps to sort them out: (1) “Loyalty.” People argue that pudge (or p-rod, as I call him, as in “be right back, have to go drain the ol’ p-rod), deserves to have his option picked up because he came in here when nobody else would and helped make the franchise a respectable destination for guys like rogers, maggs, polanco and guillen. Sure, but the other side of that is pudge was a 32 year old catcher with back problems and a lot of miles on him, and we gave him an **** of money to come here. Maybe pudge should show his loyalty and come back for what he’s worth (5-6 mil or 10/2). This one runs both ways, fellas. (2) Is pudge worth $13 Mil? Of course not, not even close. His offense is at or below average for a catcher, his defense has come down to around average. He’s not getting any younger, his knees/back will keep getting worse. But then he gets points for being a leader on the team, a favorite of casual fans, his future-HOFer credentials and all that, so bump him up some. But still, the wild flailing at sliders, the GIDP, the obvious decline in bat speed... (3) So who else then? Uh, nobody, really. kendall, barrett, loduca? No thanks. Vance wilson, mike rabelo? Not full time options. We’ll absolutely never never never see inge behind the plate again (friggin neifi was our emergency backstop this year). What about kenji johjima at seattle, they have stud-prospect catcher jeff clement coming up next year and still have johjima, so there’s that, and we have some decent youngish pitching to deal. But decent catchers are pretty hard to come by these days, even in the minors: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=6467 (4) So what? I really hope, and I’m not a pudge fan, we can maybe work out a new contract for something like 2 years for 16 mil or something - it’s more than he’d get as an FA (probably) and it’s only 3 mil more than our option on him, making it more worth it for us if he plays 240 games over the next two years. The other options are just not really feasible. There are a few different dynamics here, I think it helps to sort them out:
(1) “Loyalty.” People argue that pudge (or p-rod, as I call him, as in “be right back, have to go drain the ol’ p-rod), deserves to have his option picked up because he came in here when nobody else would and helped make the franchise a respectable destination for guys like rogers, maggs, polanco and guillen. Sure, but the other side of that is pudge was a 32 year old catcher with back problems and a lot of miles on him, and we gave him an **** of money to come here. Maybe pudge should show his loyalty and come back for what he’s worth (5-6 mil or 10/2). This one runs both ways, fellas.
(2) Is pudge worth $13 Mil? Of course not, not even close. His offense is at or below average for a catcher, his defense has come down to around average. He’s not getting any younger, his knees/back will keep getting worse. But then he gets points for being a leader on the team, a favorite of casual fans, his future-HOFer credentials and all that, so bump him up some. But still, the wild flailing at sliders, the GIDP, the obvious decline in bat speed…
(3) So who else then? Uh, nobody, really. kendall, barrett, loduca? No thanks. Vance wilson, mike rabelo? Not full time options. We’ll absolutely never never never see inge behind the plate again (friggin neifi was our emergency backstop this year). What about kenji johjima at seattle, they have stud-prospect catcher jeff clement coming up next year and still have johjima, so there’s that, and we have some decent youngish pitching to deal. But decent catchers are pretty hard to come by these days, even in the minors: http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=6467
(4) So what? I really hope, and I’m not a pudge fan, we can maybe work out a new contract for something like 2 years for 16 mil or something – it’s more than he’d get as an FA (probably) and it’s only 3 mil more than our option on him, making it more worth it for us if he plays 240 games over the next two years. The other options are just not really feasible.

]]> By: Mat http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71429 Mat Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:36:21 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71429 I think the biggest hit related to letting pudge go would be in the perception of his teammates that the team isnt doing everything to win. Pudge may be on the decline, but he still has a lot of good qualities especially on D and an OK bat. He may be overpriced but he is still good. He has earned a reputation as an elite player and clearly gives the team some credibility and respect that they would otherwise lack, even if he isn't technically performing as an elite any longer. Without him, Guillen and Ordonez and probably a number of other players will be greatly disappointed unless the $10M is spent to bring in another huge name. It probably doesn't make or break the decision for DD, but it should factor in a little bit. Overpaying Pudge by 2 or 3 million for one year is far better than the alternative. If they can get him to take less, great, but it seems unlikely Pudge would swallow his pride like that. I think the biggest hit related to letting pudge go would be in the perception of his teammates that the team isnt doing everything to win. Pudge may be on the decline, but he still has a lot of good qualities especially on D and an OK bat. He may be overpriced but he is still good. He has earned a reputation as an elite player and clearly gives the team some credibility and respect that they would otherwise lack, even if he isn’t technically performing as an elite any longer. Without him, Guillen and Ordonez and probably a number of other players will be greatly disappointed unless the $10M is spent to bring in another huge name. It probably doesn’t make or break the decision for DD, but it should factor in a little bit. Overpaying Pudge by 2 or 3 million for one year is far better than the alternative. If they can get him to take less, great, but it seems unlikely Pudge would swallow his pride like that.

]]> By: Steve in Kzoo http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71428 Steve in Kzoo Mon, 01 Oct 2007 20:00:07 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71428 'Eric, I was only speculating on things. Of course one unproven player is not worth that much but just getting the ideas rolling off of peoples backs. Also who would we get a platoon of Rebelo/Wilson don't make me laugh. Thought they are both great backups it would be a great decrease in offense. Consider Pudge's .275/12hr/60rbi's. now the platoon total next yea would be .230-.240/5-9hrs/30-50rbis's. Not good at all. not to mention we'd miss some of the timely hitting that Pudge had at certain times this year. Compared to hardly any clutch hitting on the part of Wilson/Rebelo platoon. Its just not good to shove Pudge off the plate just yet. We must do something to keep him for at least a year and see what the'09 FA gives us. ‘Eric,

I was only speculating on things. Of course one unproven player is not worth that much but just getting the ideas rolling off of peoples backs. Also who would we get a platoon of Rebelo/Wilson don’t make me laugh. Thought they are both great backups it would be a great decrease in offense. Consider Pudge’s .275/12hr/60rbi’s. now the platoon total next yea would be .230-.240/5-9hrs/30-50rbis’s. Not good at all. not to mention we’d miss some of the timely hitting that Pudge had at certain times this year. Compared to hardly any clutch hitting on the part of Wilson/Rebelo platoon. Its just not good to shove Pudge off the plate just yet. We must do something to keep him for at least a year and see what the’09 FA gives us.

]]> By: crunruh http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71424 crunruh Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:53:03 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71424 I would be happy if Inge was willing to move back behind the plate. I thought he was Pudge's peer defensively when Pudge came over. I would be happy if Inge was willing to move back behind the plate. I thought he was Pudge’s peer defensively when Pudge came over.

]]> By: Eric Cioe http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71422 Eric Cioe Mon, 01 Oct 2007 17:36:50 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/to-pudge-or-not-to-pudge/#comment-71422 Why would you trade two of the Tigers' best pitching prospects (Jurrjens and Miller) and Maybin, who everyone wanted in trade, to get a catcher? Seems like we'd be getting the short end of that stick. Plus, if Kenny doesn't come back next year, you're going to see at least Miller or Jurrjens in the rotation, and probably both. Why would you trade two of the Tigers’ best pitching prospects (Jurrjens and Miller) and Maybin, who everyone wanted in trade, to get a catcher? Seems like we’d be getting the short end of that stick.

Plus, if Kenny doesn’t come back next year, you’re going to see at least Miller or Jurrjens in the rotation, and probably both.

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