Comments on: Crushed in Oakland http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: colin http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68272 colin Tue, 04 Sep 2007 21:44:00 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68272 I can't agree that Dombrowski has mismanaged the Tigers. What I do see is someone who is absolutely unwilling to sell the years 2009-2014 for a better chance at a title in 2007. As an armchair GM i agree with most of his moves. He does not seem to commit the typical GM mistakes of underrating prospects and overrating middle relief. There are a lot of teams in baseball that I could not follow day to day because their personnel moves are just too frustrating. The Tigers are not one of them. I can’t agree that Dombrowski has mismanaged the Tigers. What I do see is someone who is absolutely unwilling to sell the years 2009-2014 for a better chance at a title in 2007. As an armchair GM i agree with most of his moves. He does not seem to commit the typical GM mistakes of underrating prospects and overrating middle relief. There are a lot of teams in baseball that I could not follow day to day because their personnel moves are just too frustrating. The Tigers are not one of them.

]]> By: cib http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68270 cib Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:36:49 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68270 No, actually Kyle, it's a spot-on analysis. Personally I think the second injury to Kenny, and, surprisingly, losing Jair J. when he was providing a bit of a spark, some excitement, some hope - were two of the most significant injuries. As I've commented in other threads, right, they're pros and you don't use injuries as an excuse but at some point when there is a new one almost, what, twice a week, collectively it becomes too much to overcome. No, actually Kyle, it’s a spot-on analysis. Personally I think the second injury to Kenny, and, surprisingly, losing Jair J. when he was providing a bit of a spark, some excitement, some hope – were two of the most significant injuries. As I’ve commented in other threads, right, they’re pros and you don’t use injuries as an excuse but at some point when there is a new one almost, what, twice a week, collectively it becomes too much to overcome.

]]> By: Kyle J http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68269 Kyle J Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:28:21 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68269 Sorry for adding to your depression with that last post, cib. Here's hoping we can kick the White Sox when they're down. Adding to Ozzie's misery would provide a small measure of consolation. Sorry for adding to your depression with that last post, cib.

Here’s hoping we can kick the White Sox when they’re down. Adding to Ozzie’s misery would provide a small measure of consolation.

]]> By: Kyle J http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68267 Kyle J Tue, 04 Sep 2007 20:26:49 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68267 Who exactly has underachieved? Bonderman Inge Monroe (before his departure) Pudge (marginally) Middle relievers And who has overachieved? Ordonez Polanco Guillen (compared to career #s, at least) Granderson (have to look at overall #s) Verlander (compared to potential sophomore slump we all feared) Who has been hurt? Rogers Zumaya Rodney Sheffield I'm willing to call the players in the first group "head cases." Bonderman's performance, in particular, has really hurt the team down the stretch. But to label the entire team in that manner is a gross oversimplification. There's been plenty of overachieving, too, and injuries have certainly played a role. And again I have to ask what moves you wanted Dombrowski to make. Which first and third basemen were available this offseason to replace Casey and Inge? Was getting Sheffield a significant move? Which reliever would have been a difference maker at the stretch? (Obviously there was no way to predict how bad Gagne would be, but it does point to the fact that there's no such thing as a sure thing in the world of relief pitching.) Who exactly has underachieved?

Bonderman
Inge
Monroe (before his departure)
Pudge (marginally)
Middle relievers

And who has overachieved?

Ordonez
Polanco
Guillen (compared to career #s, at least)
Granderson (have to look at overall #s)
Verlander (compared to potential sophomore slump we all feared)

Who has been hurt?

Rogers
Zumaya
Rodney
Sheffield

I’m willing to call the players in the first group “head cases.” Bonderman’s performance, in particular, has really hurt the team down the stretch.

But to label the entire team in that manner is a gross oversimplification. There’s been plenty of overachieving, too, and injuries have certainly played a role.

And again I have to ask what moves you wanted Dombrowski to make. Which first and third basemen were available this offseason to replace Casey and Inge? Was getting Sheffield a significant move? Which reliever would have been a difference maker at the stretch? (Obviously there was no way to predict how bad Gagne would be, but it does point to the fact that there’s no such thing as a sure thing in the world of relief pitching.)

]]> By: Kurt http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68264 Kurt Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:51:49 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68264 "The self deception accusation would seem to apply more to those who compare the team to the ‘27 Yankees,or one player to Willie Mays and another to Pedro Martinez." Admittedly, maybe I missed those comments. I don't read every single comment. It's possible someone said the Tigers were the 27 Yankees. But I really don't remember it. Care to offer evidence of those claims? “The self deception accusation would seem to apply more to those who compare the team to the ‘27 Yankees,or one player to Willie Mays and another to Pedro Martinez.”

Admittedly, maybe I missed those comments. I don’t read every single comment. It’s possible someone said the Tigers were the 27 Yankees. But I really don’t remember it. Care to offer evidence of those claims?

]]> By: cib http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68262 cib Tue, 04 Sep 2007 19:20:13 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68262 Guys. In less than 3 hours I'm leaving the office and walking over to the ballpark. If I read anymore of these comments I'll be officially clinically depressed. No More Under This Thread!! Billfer, let's put up the thread for tonight and Go Tigers, Beat the Whitesox!!! lol - thanks Guys. In less than 3 hours I’m leaving the office and walking over to the ballpark. If I read anymore of these comments I’ll be officially clinically depressed. No More Under This Thread!! Billfer, let’s put up the thread for tonight and Go Tigers, Beat the Whitesox!!! lol – thanks

]]> By: Stephen http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68260 Stephen Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:53:38 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68260 Well Kyle, I guess that's looking at the glass half full. Beginning after their 76-36 miracle start, they're 92-91 which seems to be a statistically significant amount. My argument isn't that the talent is mediocre, it's not, but that the players are chronically underachieving 'cause they're a bunch of head cases run by a by-the-whim manager and overseen by a GM who made no moves to shore up the team's weaknesses. In 2007, they've been run like a mismanaged corporation. Well Kyle, I guess that’s looking at the glass half full. Beginning after their 76-36 miracle start, they’re 92-91 which seems to be a statistically significant amount. My argument isn’t that the talent is mediocre, it’s not, but that the players are chronically underachieving ’cause they’re a bunch of head cases run by a by-the-whim manager and overseen by a GM who made no moves to shore up the team’s weaknesses. In 2007, they’ve been run like a mismanaged corporation.

]]> By: BobS. http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68258 BobS. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 18:03:44 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68258 I specifically wrote that the 24 game turnaround from '05 to '06 was a fluke,which I think is borne out by their second half fades of both seasons as well as the atrocious quality of their recent play.The self deception accusation would seem to apply more to those who compare the team to the '27 Yankees,or one player to Willie Mays and another to Pedro Martinez. There's nothing particularly magical about 8/06.However,that impressive won-lost record you cite is bulked up by the first part of the '06 season.And what's so magical about the beginning of 2006?Since the beginning of 2005,with many of the same group of players,the Tigers are 239-222,which reflects what I've argued they are-an average to good team,not one of the 3 or 4 best in baseball.I would agree that 92 wins is their ceiling,with them more likely to win the 88 or less that I bet on. I specifically wrote that the 24 game turnaround from ’05 to ’06 was a fluke,which I think is borne out by their second half fades of both seasons as well as the atrocious quality of their recent play.The self deception accusation would seem to apply more to those who compare the team to the ’27 Yankees,or one player to Willie Mays and another to Pedro Martinez.
There’s nothing particularly magical about 8/06.However,that impressive won-lost record you cite is bulked up by the first part of the ’06 season.And what’s so magical about the beginning of 2006?Since the beginning of 2005,with many of the same group of players,the Tigers are 239-222,which reflects what I’ve argued they are-an average to good team,not one of the 3 or 4 best in baseball.I would agree that 92 wins is their ceiling,with them more likely to win the 88 or less that I bet on.

]]> By: Bill A \ Kal MI http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68255 Bill A \ Kal MI Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:23:52 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68255 ok Bondo will throw tonite and we'll find out shortly if he still has that page from the playbook that sez throw strikes -- let them get themselves out we have a month in front of us and a lot of good games. and every game is an opportunity for us to make evaluations and these evaluations should be directed more at training and coaching than at anything else. there is plenty of ability the key is to use that ability effectively! ok Bondo will throw tonite

and we’ll find out shortly if he still has that page from the playbook that sez throw strikes — let them get themselves out

we have a month in front of us and a lot of good games. and every game is an opportunity for us to make evaluations

and these evaluations should be directed more at training and coaching than at anything else. there is plenty of ability the key is to use that ability effectively!

]]> By: Kyle J http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68254 Kyle J Tue, 04 Sep 2007 17:00:21 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68254 What's magical about 8/06, Stephen? With basically the same group of players, the Tigers are 168-127 since the beginning of 2006. That's a winning % of .569, which translates to 92 wins over a 162-game season. That's probably a pretty good gauge of the baseline ability of the team. And that's why I'm disappointed we're probably not going to make the playoffs--although I chalk it up more to injuries and bad breaks than to a lack of "heart." Your argument seems to be that this team is fundamentally mediocre--a .500 team. If that's the case, what's to be upset about? What’s magical about 8/06, Stephen?

With basically the same group of players, the Tigers are 168-127 since the beginning of 2006. That’s a winning % of .569, which translates to 92 wins over a 162-game season. That’s probably a pretty good gauge of the baseline ability of the team. And that’s why I’m disappointed we’re probably not going to make the playoffs–although I chalk it up more to injuries and bad breaks than to a lack of “heart.”

Your argument seems to be that this team is fundamentally mediocre–a .500 team. If that’s the case, what’s to be upset about?

]]> By: ron http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68253 ron Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:58:57 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68253 Very long term for fans who are used to bad teams but not good teams playing bad baseball. They just have to play "hearty" baseball for the next 3 weeks, get into the playoffs and win the World Series. This is a window of oppurtunity that may not come around for a long time again. Very long term for fans who are used to bad teams but not good teams playing bad baseball. They just have to play “hearty” baseball for the next 3 weeks, get into the playoffs and win the World Series. This is a window of oppurtunity that may not come around for a long time again.

]]> By: Stephen http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68250 Stephen Tue, 04 Sep 2007 16:08:05 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68250 Man, i'm not sure how it's is short-terme oriented to be disappointed when this team has played miserably for two months. i'd call that fairly long term. And you want long term? We are a game or two under .500 since 8/06. Man, i’m not sure how it’s is short-terme oriented to be disappointed when this team has played miserably for two months. i’d call that fairly long term. And you want long term? We are a game or two under .500 since 8/06.

]]> By: Kurt http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68249 Kurt Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:36:13 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68249 Kinda funny how the Tigers fluked their way to the within one win of the best record in baseball at the All-Star Break then, isn't it? And what a fluke it must have been they scored all those runs when their lineup was healthy. If you think the Tigers' winning is due to a fluke, you're deceiving yourself and trying to deceive others. Kinda funny how the Tigers fluked their way to the within one win of the best record in baseball at the All-Star Break then, isn’t it?

And what a fluke it must have been they scored all those runs when their lineup was healthy.

If you think the Tigers’ winning is due to a fluke, you’re deceiving yourself and trying to deceive others.

]]> By: BobS. http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68246 BobS. Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:08:30 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68246 Kyle J, if I may make a minor correction to your comment.We (wrongly) expected the Tigers to be "one of the 3 or 4 best teams in baseball" by incorrectly assuming every player (excepting Sheffield) would automatically repeat their essentially injury-free and in some instances career-best 2006 season .We should have (rightly) expected the Tigers to be one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the AL Central.As grown-ups,it's often required of us to accept some brutal realities-in this instance,that the 24 game turnaround of last year was a FLUKE.Among the other shortcomings of the 2007 Tigers,"one of the 3 or 4 best teams in baseball" does not have Todd Jones as their closer and the powerful duo of Inge(and his most-bestest-ever miraculous 162-gamesaving defensive prowess notwithstanding) and Casey at the infield corners. Kyle J,
if I may make a minor correction to your comment.We (wrongly) expected the Tigers to be “one of the 3 or 4 best teams in baseball” by incorrectly assuming every player (excepting Sheffield) would automatically repeat their essentially injury-free and in some instances career-best 2006 season .We should have (rightly) expected the Tigers to be one of the 3 or 4 best teams in the AL Central.As grown-ups,it’s often required of us to accept some brutal realities-in this instance,that the 24 game turnaround of last year was a FLUKE.Among the other shortcomings of the 2007 Tigers,”one of the 3 or 4 best teams in baseball” does not have Todd Jones as their closer and the powerful duo of Inge(and his most-bestest-ever miraculous 162-gamesaving defensive prowess notwithstanding) and Casey at the infield corners.

]]> By: Coach Jim http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68244 Coach Jim Tue, 04 Sep 2007 14:42:20 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/09/crushed-in-oakland/#comment-68244 Greg has it nailed. So today are you happy the Tigers are over .500 and in a pennant-chase? Or are you so short-term-oriented you can't see past the last loss? If you're whining today... Baseball is a long-haul sport. Mike Valenti and his New York, immediate-gratification attitude are a sure way to run a team into the ground. Have patience, put your team together and SEE HOW THEY DO. Greg has it nailed.

So today are you happy the Tigers are over .500 and in a pennant-chase? Or are you so short-term-oriented you can’t see past the last loss? If you’re whining today…

Baseball is a long-haul sport. Mike Valenti and his New York, immediate-gratification attitude are a sure way to run a team into the ground.

Have patience, put your team together and SEE HOW THEY DO.

]]>