I guess my point is that it might be a more complicated equation than it seems on paper.

Leyland gives his guys a lot of rope, and that can drive fans crazy, but I do think there’s a big upside to his approach. It’s part of the reason players like to play for him. The value of that is rarely visible to the rest of us.

Yes, in some cases, this can be pointed to as evidence of a patient hitter who works the count (particularly if it coincides with other evidence of a hitter’s patience), but in Inge’s case, more than anything else, his high number of “pitches seen” is because he swings and misses so often. He’s failing to put the ball into play on offerings that the average hitter would put into player earlier in counts, therefore necessitating more pitches.
In other words, its a moot point and certainly not an asset to his case.
As Bilfer says above, if he’s working the count to get walks, that’s a good thing, but “working” the count because he swings and misses 2-3 times per AB is not.

David, I admire your tenacity in defense of Brandon, but a dose of reality is helpful. We’re all Tiger fans, rooting for him and all of players, but as I was always rooting for John B. Wockenfuss in my youth, I also realized that he was never going to be a “great” player. Likewise, the Tigers need to finally consider some other options for an underproducing player, especially one who is now making unrealistic comparisons of himself with “Ruth” and “Williams.” He needs a break.

1) Salary. Right now it doesn’t matter. As I said 20 million or 20 dollars, what he is getting paid is meaningless for the next 3 months. We can debate salary after the season. Inge’s paycheck right now is irrelevant. It is what it is. I don’t care what other 3rd basemen are getting paid either. Right now it is production that speaks, not payday.

Pitches seen. Of course he has seen a lot of pitches. He is striking out at .320 clip and leads the league. His strikeouts absolutely kill innings. No amount of pitches seen defends his k’s.

Anecdotal “2 walk off homeruns” is a poor argument. For every walk off he has he has had literally dozens of inning killing strikeouts. Defending him on 0-17 then saying “he went on a tear after that” is also silly. Why not look at the WHOLE year? I have listed his BA, OPS, and K’s enough for you to get the point that these meaningful stats, as oppossed to your desparately clinging to ‘pitches seen’. The relevent stats are where Inge is absolutely deficient.

The reason people are jumping on Inge is because of……Brandon Inge. His play has been horrible and people are rightly calling him to the carpet.

No one has said here that the Tigers are losing because of Inge. I have never said it. Not once. Turn down the paranoid lever.

Your most…. ummm…. interesting defense of Inge is that other players ’stink’ too…. I believe you list Casey, Pudge, and Sheffield as having ’stunk’ as well as Inge. So, by that rationale it is ok for me to drink and drive so long as everyone else on the road is drunk too? You know, maybe I will try it and use it as my defense in court. Think it will work?

I have not said that the Tigers record over the last 30 days is Inge’s fault. But clearly, he isn’t helping. His play has earned him his demotion, and now a great majority see and agree with this assessment. We aren’t discussing the pitching, or other hitters, we are discussing Inge. You go to great effort to shine the light anywhere but Inge. The question here is Inge’s play. The stats you use to defend him are nearly irrelevant, while the stats I use (OPS, BA, K’s) show offensive futility. Your anacdotes are easily countered by more anacdotes. For example countering your playoff and World Series anacdotes is easy by saying Inge lead the team in strikeouts and errors in the postseason. He struck out at a .340 clip. Maybe I am fuzzy on the definition of clutch, but I am pretty sure leading the team in errors and whiffs isn’t clutch.

His defense is absolutely debatable. He leads AL 3rd basemen in errors, yet he is 3rd in range factor. His fielding percentage is 9th. You may not like using errors and fielding percentage, but there can be an argument that he is far less than “steller”… Steller 3rd basemen don’t tag 3rd when there is no force. Yep, that is an anacdotal argument. But that play was so far into the Land Of Stupid that is begs to be mentioned. We are talking Leon Lett dumb. Dumb like I have not seen that in 30 years of baseball or 20 years of softball. You don’t even see little leaguers making a play that dumb. Take some of the crisco off of the rose colored Inge glasses. His fielding is a little above average.

“And I’m sure he will pull out of it”- your comment. Great, now we are in an argument of faith. When all logic fails, go to faith. Umm, ok, I can’t argue your faith in him. You know, maybe your faith will be boosted if you strip down to your underwear and bark at the moon. I mean, it’s faith afterall… it couldn’t hurt.

I applaud you rooting for the guy. I am not trying to change your mind. I applaud you defending him, but the tools you use in his defense are absurd. Saying, in effect, “But other guys suck too” only shows your doggedness not to face facts.

His strong 2004 season was the result of pitchers challenging a guy who came into the season with a .201 lifetime average…to wit: he saw a lot of hittable fastballs. Once he established he could handle it at a more reasonable pace than his previous history, teams started to actually “pitch” to him…the result: a steadily decline in performance. (.261-.253-.242 since)

What magically happened to pitchers in 2004 that they started grooving fastballs to him that they weren’t in previous seasons?

Batting average is one measure of performance. You’ll see that Inge actually started taking more walks after 2004 when pitchers pitched him tougher. You’ll also see that he increased his power even as pitchers stopped putting the ball on a tee for him.

I want to make it clear, I have absolutely no problem with Inge’s production from 04-06 and I’d be quite happy to have that in the lineup. My contention is that at his current offensive production he’s a drain. Where the two Inge camps seem to split is that pro-Inge expect him to hit closer to the new established level of performance which he maintained for 3 years (and I’m looking at total offensive performance, not just batting average), while Inge detractors just expect him to get worse.

As for the strikeouts, they really don’t bother me in general. He strikes out a ton, so do a lot of hitters. It’s become problematic as of late because it’s been almost every other at-bat and the complete inability to put the ball in play in situations that necessitate it.

He’s a good athlete, but he’s very, very fortunate to have received so many at-bats in his career as it is. Most teams - had they not suffered 321 losses in first three third seasons(and 119 in his third year) - would have released him by his third straight season of hitting under .205 and you’d never had heard from him again.

I can’t argue this. He was definitely in the right place at the right time and it’s amazing he still had a job after 2003.

Also he hits lefties at a .301 mark so maybe you think he should be platooned and be a late inning defensive replacement like he was today.

NO ONE CAN ARGUE that he is not stellar in the field.

And last year was the best defensive year by anyone that I’ve ever seen, and I don’t just watch the Tigs.

We can argue all day long, but I happen to really support him as I do with most other Tigers who I deem to be helping the team win, so you aren’t going to change my mind.

Also really if their offense was going like it was while he was hitting, or even while he wasn’t (excluding April) we didn’t really need the hitting we needed the pitching.

Also he hits lefties at a .301 mark so maybe you think he should be platooned and be a late inning defensive replacement like he was today.

NO ONE CAN ARGUE that he is stellar in the field.

And last year was the best defensive year by anyone that I’ve ever seen, and I don’t just watch the Tigs.

We can argue all day long, but I happen to really support him as I do with most other Tigers who I deem to be helping the team win, so you aren’t going to change my mind.

Also really if their offense was going like it was while he was hitting, or even while he wasn’t (excluding April) we didn’t really need the hitting we needed the pitching.