Trade Deadline Day

I’ll be doing my day job today, so if anything happens, I probably won’t be able to hit it until after the 4pm deadline. But if something does happen and you want to post it here and help the community, all the better.

As for the latest buzz, Morosi thinks if anything happens it will be with the Pirates and again he’s banging on the Jack Wilson drum. I don’t know if he’s advocating this, or merely pointing out a fit. Of course the fit would simply be the fact that the Tigers take on a lot of money for this year and next year for a guy that can’t hit a lick and would be available for free on waivers after today – kind of like Neifi Perez last yearjjj. Pointing out that he is an “expert defender” doesn’t comfort me when you look at his 641 OPS. And it’s not like he’s fast, he’s 0 for 3 on steals. This would be an awful move.

Today mostly became about hoping that the Jack Wilson trade wouldn’t come to fruition. Bless You Boys found a report that a deal was nearly complete that would have sent Brent Clevlen to the Pirates for Wilson and all his salary along with reliever Solomon Torres. But the Pirates asked for Jurrjens instead and that nixed it. Taking on Wilson’s salary and contract no matter what the Tigers gave up would have been a disaster because he can’t hit and is only average defensively. And because he’s an old NL player I get the feeling he would have had way too much playing time. And that is an exorbitant cost for a guy that is replacement level.

But Dave Dombrowski said that it never got that close. He also mentioned that the Tigers did make a run at Dotel

which he believed came down to Royals GM Dayton Moore knowing Kyle Davies better from his time running the Braves farm system. “We were prepared to put up a quality player, who talentwise might even be a better player.”

Am I happy with the pen the way it is? I’m certainly not thrilled, but I also think that the Tigers didn’t have to make a move at all costs.


  1. Jeff

    July 31, 2007 at 8:57 am

    Agree completely, Bill. Wilson isn’t as bad as Neifi, but he’s way overpaid and would be a 2008 contract albatross. The Tigers could spend that money in 2008 in far better ways.

    All this money to avoid a couple errors. Didn’t they learn anything from the Neifi trade last year?

  2. Kurt

    July 31, 2007 at 9:02 am

    I don’t care if Pittsburgh pays his salary for the next two seasons, you still don’t do it

  3. Nate

    July 31, 2007 at 9:13 am

    I really hope this doesn’t happen. Wilson is a slightly better choice than the animated corpse of Ray Oyler, but, seriously, come on.

    And, worse, Morosi seems to think he’d have a long term future with the club, starting at short if Guillen moves to first. This is a terrible, terrible idea.

  4. Tater

    July 31, 2007 at 9:20 am

    You can’t spell Jon Paul Morosi without m-o-r-o-n.

    OK, that’s a bit harsh, but Jack Wilson? Nothing like a little subtraction by addition.

  5. Anthony

    July 31, 2007 at 9:23 am

    I think they should stand pat unless they can get a reliever on the cheap, which probably won’t happen.

  6. Matt in Toledo

    July 31, 2007 at 9:48 am

    I don’t mind picking up a backup infielder, but only if he gets paid like a backup infielder. After all, their backup right now in the infield begins and ends with Omar Infante and that’s dangerous with Polanco and Guillen both fighting the occasional aches and pains.

    I’m also all for looking for a cheap solution to what could be a defensive problem at shorstop in the near future, but Jack Wilson will not come cheap. If they take on his salary, they’ll be paying him for his one good season on offense – 2004 – and if they don’t, they’ll probably have to give up more talent than he brings in return.

    If the Tigers make this deal, it’s going to be just like getting Neifi Perez and Jose Mesa. Our reaction will be WTF when they do it, and it will stay that way until they finally give up and let him go. Of course, they still haven’t officially done that with Neifi Perez.

  7. Ryan

    July 31, 2007 at 10:09 am

    Speaking if Neifi, does anyone know if there is a clause in the standard player contract (or specifically in his contract) that allows the Tigers to void it after a drug suspension?

  8. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 10:12 am

    The Pirates presumably would pick up a large portion of Wilson’s salary, so that really isn’t a concern, in my opinion. The concern, as some have pointed out, is that he sucks.

  9. Bob S.

    July 31, 2007 at 10:24 am

    What the hell happened to Wilson?Didn’t he have a 200 hit season several years ago?

  10. Ryan S

    July 31, 2007 at 10:36 am

    Here’s some info on the Wilson deal.

    The interesting part could be if the Pirates throw in a reliever as well. I don’t know a lot about those three, but you could count me in the “give-me-someone-to-yell-at-besides-Grilli” camp.

    Wilson as the full-time SS next year is the scarry part.

  11. Nate

    July 31, 2007 at 10:53 am is now reporting that Wilson has been traded, although the other team in the deal has not been named.

  12. Tbone

    July 31, 2007 at 10:56 am

    If the Wilson deal happens, I assume we have seen the last of Neifi. We do need another backup infielder as Matt mentioned. I certainly don’t see this guy as a starter next year.

  13. Mike R

    July 31, 2007 at 11:12 am

    Count me out on Torres, Marte, and Chacon, please. I don’t care if they come with Jack Wilson. We do need a backup IFer and didn’t Santiago break his finger? Ideally, we’d just call up our own dead back who can field with the best of them in Ramon Santiago.

  14. Ryan

    July 31, 2007 at 11:13 am

    He certainly looks like in improvement over Neifi. But if I have to shell out 5.50 for a Hot N’ Ready to pay this guy’s confoundingly large contract, we’ve got problems. Is it possible that Wilson’s contract is the price to get an arm out of the Pirates bullpen for cheap?

  15. Kyle J

    July 31, 2007 at 11:15 am

    More specific link on the Wilson deal:

    Indicates that Tigers could agree to pick up more of Wilson’s remaining salary if the Pirates throw in a relief pitcher.

    The question is: What is the likely scenario for 1B/SS going into next season. I don’t think Guillen’s body will allow him to stay at SS much longer. So he has to move to first. In that case, what are the realisitic options at SS? (I’m not saying there aren’t better options; I just don’t know what they are, other than the faith that Infante would flourish as a full-time player.)

  16. don

    July 31, 2007 at 11:24 am

    Jack Wilson has a WORSE career average, obp and slugging than neifi. He may be the worst regular starting player in all baseball. Why not just keep raburn up as an option to backup at 2B with infante – if something catastrophic happens and we need end up wanting wilson in a month, I guarantee he’ll clear waivers in a waiver deal later. Subtraction by addition is absolutely right.

  17. Rash in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 11:34 am

    The thing that concerns me about moving Guillen to first is that he’d be an average offensive first-baseman. As it stands right now, he’s a top-tier offensive shortstop. I realize that he may make a few more errors, but I’d rather live with those than take the catastrophic drop-off in offense that we’d see w/ Jack Wilson starting at short next year. I don’t think it’s out of the realm of possiblity for Guillen to play shortstop through the remainder of his contract.

  18. Tbone

    July 31, 2007 at 11:40 am

    Wilson has a slightly higher career OBP at .305 vs. Neifi’s .297, other career stats are very similar:

    Perez .375 slugging, .267 average
    Wilson .366 slugging, .263 average

    This years stats:

    Perez: .221/.266/.172
    Wilson: .301/.340/.249

    Advantage Wilson, with the bonus of having a guy who hopefully isn’t tainted by drug allegations. Either way, this is just a backup infielder deal we’re talking here, not some team changing blockbuster.

  19. T Smith

    July 31, 2007 at 11:48 am

    Anytime you compare a guys stats to Neifi Perez, to weigh the advantages/disadvantages, you know you’re in trouble

  20. charlie

    July 31, 2007 at 11:56 am

    how much longer is santiago out with his broken finger…he could do what wilson does at a fraction of the price. i think barnes would be a better option than wilson.

  21. Coach Jim

    July 31, 2007 at 11:57 am

    Ramon Martinez would make sense. Remember him, we had him for a couple months in 05. He was the guy we traded with Urbina to get Polanco. He’s a good glove/no hit infielder making $600k. THERE is the perfect fit.

  22. Jason

    July 31, 2007 at 12:23 pm

    Quote: “The thing that concerns me about moving Guillen to first is that he’d be an average offensive first-baseman.”

    Where does that leave Casey?

    If you are worried about Guillen’s production at first, then you must have serious issues with Casey at first base.

  23. Rash in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 12:26 pm

    I’m actually ok with Sean Casey at first this season, because there’s so much power elsewhere in the lineup. In general, though, you don’t normally look for your first-baseman to hit for average and little power.

    It’s hard for me to knock Casey because I like the guy so much.

  24. Mike R

    July 31, 2007 at 12:38 pm

    We can takes Casey’s subpar numbers relative to his position because we have the best offensive SS in the game. Moving Guillen to 1B and putting Wilson at SS means we have the worst offensive production from SS and Average to good production at 1st base.

    I want Guillen at 1st at some point, but not within the next 2 years. This years SS free agent crop is very lean and unless you sign A-Rod to SS, there’s no upgrade at short to replace Guillen — which is the only way you move him to first.

    TBone, it’s not so much the thought of getting a middle infielder. It’s the thought of getting a middle infielder with this contract:
    07 Salary: $5.25 million.
    08: $6.5 million.
    09: $7.25 million.
    2010 is a club option for $8.4 million with a $600K buyout clause.

    Count me out of this. There’s a ton of no-hit, able to field back up infielders.

    If we want a to nab an overpaid guy like this from Pittsburgh, I’d rather look to Cesar Izturis who they have:
    07 Salary: $4.15 million.
    08: $5.45 million club option; $300K buyout. So we’d only really be on the hook for less then half of his 07 salary. Him + one of those terribly mediocre relievers and I’d be alright with it.

  25. T Smith

    July 31, 2007 at 12:58 pm

    I’m not warm to any deal with Wilson; but I think how paletable this deal is depends on how much of the salary outlined in Mike R.’s post the Pirates will pick up, as well as who else we get with the package, e.g. Shawn Chacon, Damaso Marte, or Salomon Torres.

  26. don

    July 31, 2007 at 1:04 pm

    The underlying problem here is this: we have an old infield, we have NO decent infield prospects coming up anytime soon and the FA market for infielders this coming offseason is weak. Casey won’t be back in 08. Guillen can’t be expected to play SS beyond 08. What to do? I don’t know exactly, but paying jack wilson $15 million for something ramon santiago could do better for around $3 million isn’t a solution. What are the 1B options for 2008 and beyond? Shelton? Thames? Adam Dunn!? Carlos Pena! (kidding, of course…)

  27. T Smith

    July 31, 2007 at 1:14 pm

    I wouldn’t mind picking up Marte. It certainly couldn’t hurt. And as far a Wilson is concerned, I can’t seriously believe the deal they will be annoucing (I think it’s a done deal) will affect the future at shortstop. Let’s give DD a little more credit than that.

  28. Kevin in Austin

    July 31, 2007 at 2:01 pm

    I’m willing to take on Wilson to get Marte or Torres in here. Preferably Torres, he can take Grilli’s spot.

    Quick glance at Marte – his numbers are eerily similar to those of Jaime Walker.

  29. Kathy

    July 31, 2007 at 2:09 pm


    Wilson .982
    Guillen .953
    Omar .913

  30. Chris in Nashville

    July 31, 2007 at 2:16 pm

    If we could get Wilson AND Marte…I think that would be a good deal, assuming we aren’t giving up much in return. Marte is pretty tough, even though we have a plethera of lefties right now, Marte is better than all of them I think. If Zumaya and Rodney are back and with Marte to go with 3 of the follwing 4 Byrdak/Seay, Miner/Durbin, and Jones, that is pretty solid I think. But, big IFS in there is the only problem.

  31. charlie

    July 31, 2007 at 2:18 pm

    MLBTR is saying the red sox are close to getting gagne…papelbon and gagne will be a pretty good 8-9 setup/closer.

  32. charlie

    July 31, 2007 at 2:25 pm

    MLBTR is also saying they may have jumped the gun regarding the proposed jack wilson to the tigers trade…they do say talks are still ongoing.

  33. Kevin in Austin

    July 31, 2007 at 2:34 pm

    Gagne has a no trade clause and could well block a trade to Boston. I don’t think he wants to be a set-up guy, nor does he want to leave the SW. Though I’m wondering if BOS may have plans to move Papelbon back to a SP next year.

  34. Kyle J

    July 31, 2007 at 2:47 pm

    It’s not just about the offense/fielding tradeoffs of Guillen at 1B or SS. I just don’t think his body is going to hold up well enough to play SS for more than another year. This is why I was somewhat wary of his contract extension, as great as he’s been since he became a Tiger.

    Agree that Wilson’s offense should preclude him from being a long-term option. Should be able to get a AAA SS as a throw-in on a trade who could produce similar numbers at the plate.

  35. Mike R

    July 31, 2007 at 3:10 pm

    Why Marte? McBride and Seay and Byrdak can all be the LH specialists. They’re a dime a dozen, hence why we let Jamie Walker walk.

    It better be either Chacon or Torres. Neither of which I really want, but hey, at least it’s a different face to yell at instead of Grilli. I just don’t want Jack Wilson. Regardless of how much Pittsburgh’s willing to pay of his deal.

  36. Tbone

    July 31, 2007 at 3:21 pm

    Tick-tock, tick-tock…

    Gagne to the Red Sox? That would be a tough bullpen to get by…

  37. Anthony

    July 31, 2007 at 3:29 pm

    The Tigers should have taken Percival seriously when he came back.

  38. Jonathon

    July 31, 2007 at 3:38 pm

    Haven’t heard any more on Clint Barmes from the Rockies system. He could be the backup shortstop that the team is seemingly looking for and would be a ton cheaper than Wilson.

  39. Chris in Nashville

    July 31, 2007 at 3:44 pm

    Supposedly, the Gagne to the BoSox deal is done and he’ll be setting up Papellbon….they gave up that Gabbard guy and a minor league OF…..the more I think about it, we should have went after him, even though he could get hurt at any second. It doesn’t look like we are going to do anything unless it happens right at the deadline, which is 15 minutes away.

  40. Mike R

    July 31, 2007 at 3:56 pm

    Texas completely re-shaped their organization in just two trades. They not only got Gabbard and all the studs from Atlanta, but the OFer they got is a 16 year old who early projections are, he’s as close as a teenager can be to having all 5 tools/should develop what isn’t already there.

  41. Bill A \ Kal MI

    July 31, 2007 at 3:59 pm

    ok that’s it where’s the news? who’d we get?

  42. T Smith

    July 31, 2007 at 4:04 pm

    I know we don’t need another lefty specialist, but I just think Marte is more of an impact pitcher than what we’ve got and would be a huge upgrade over McBride/Seay/Byrdak… I would think we would probaby option McBride down if we pick up Marte.


    K/9: 9.64
    .095 WHIP
    1.38 ERA


    k/9: 7.56
    WHIP: 1.45
    ERA: 3.72


    k/9: 7.46
    WHIP: 1.31
    ERA: 4.63

    I just like Marte better. But, yes, if we get Torres or Chacon, it would be give us somebody else to scream at besides Grilli. BTW, what do you do with Grilli, anyway, if we pick up Torres or Chacon?????

  43. Teymour

    July 31, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    I guess the BoSox really want to win this year. As for us, I think we will be happy competing for the AL central year in and year out. It’s a little frustrating that we couldn’t put together a package that could get us some much needed help. Last year the price was too high. This year, it seems that we had the peices to throw together to get a top flight reliever, even w/o including a Maybin. Oh well, hopefully our someday intentions come to fruition and Zumaya is dominant and Rodney is good. Else we won’t make the playoffs and the Red Sox are closer to another WS title.

  44. T Smith

    July 31, 2007 at 4:10 pm

    Points all mute.

    So let me get this straight… we didn’t do anything??

    Wow. Here’s banking on a) a 100% healthy return of Zumaya and Rodney or b) the 2008 season

  45. Tbone

    July 31, 2007 at 4:17 pm

    I guess I can’t help but be disappointed. This bullpen is such a liability and now we are just hoping (praying) that the rehabbed Rodney/Zumaya come to the rescue.

    I know there wasn’t much realistically available but this team did nothing to improve its post-season chances.

  46. Anthony

    July 31, 2007 at 4:18 pm

    I think the Tigers are banking on the fact that the playoffs are more of a toss-up and they will take their chances with what they have. I’m definitely OK with it. I think if they can go forward with someone else in LF (Thames or Rayburn) and otherwise maintain status quo with the pitching staff, they will win the central. Zumaya and Rodney will be bonuses but right now I think that they can win the WS with what they have. Boston is very beatable. So is Anaheim. So is any team in the NL (Its between ATL, CHC, and SD I think)

  47. Kevin in Austin

    July 31, 2007 at 4:19 pm

    Boston has 4 blown saves this year. Awesome. If we had Boston’s pen we’d be talking about our magic number.

  48. Teymour

    July 31, 2007 at 4:22 pm

    Anthony, I couldn’t disagree with you more. Boston has a comparable starting 5 and a comparable offense. The only difference is that Boston’s Bullpen is lights out and ours is a gas can. Anahiem’s starters aren’t quite as good as ours, but they are close. The playoffs are all about pitching and I see our squad (from top to bottom) as the third best in the AL behind the two teams you mentioned. We will need Zoom and F-Rod Healthy, or we are dead in the water. I would also like to note that great years like this one and the year prior don’t happen ofter. Enjoy and hope we’ve got another in us next year.

  49. Chris in Nashville

    July 31, 2007 at 4:26 pm

    It appears we did nothing, so I guess Dombrowski is doing what we’ve been talking about for 2 months, hope to God Rodney and Zumaya both get healthy and that both revert to their 2006 play. I’d rather have those guys anyway, but I think they should have done SOMETHING. There is still a month to make some moves, but they have to clear waivers first, by then, we should know about Zumaya and Rodney, but it will probably be too late to get someone of significance if they aren’t healthy or pitching like they did last year.

  50. Jeff

    July 31, 2007 at 4:28 pm

    The Tigers have scored 68 more runs than the Red Sox. Their offenses are not comparable, especially given park effects.

  51. Kurt

    July 31, 2007 at 4:32 pm

    This is most disappointing if there’s no deals that come out.

  52. Nick

    July 31, 2007 at 4:42 pm

    Jason Beck is reporting that there are no Tiger deals.

  53. Kyle J

    July 31, 2007 at 4:45 pm

    Beyond trading for Gagne–and it’s unclear to me that Gagne would have waived the no-trade clause to come here; sounds like Boston had put up some significant dough to make that happen–I don’t understand what move would have made people feel better about this team’s chances down the stretch.

    Certainly, Rodney and Zumaya coming back and pitching well is no sure thing, but neither are Octavio Dotel or Kyle Farnsworth.

    And to say Tigers management is content to just contend for the AL Central every year is a bit over the top. Has any team been more aggressive in building a top-to-bottom contender than the Tigers the last few years? Signing Pudge, Magglio, Rogers. Trading for Sheffield. Extending Guillen. Those are all big financial moves that dramatically outweigh whether we picked up a single reliever at the trade deadline.

  54. Mike in Missouri

    July 31, 2007 at 4:47 pm

    Didn’t Dombrowski make a few deals earlier this month, like getting rid of Ledezma (who the Braves designated for assignment earlier this week)? I agree that it is a bit of a disappointment to not have any deals for the Tigers today, but that tells me that Dombrowski is looking long term, and doesn’t want to give away prospects (see Smoltz) for a rental player.

    If (and it is a big if) Rogers, Zumaya, and Rodney can all come back healthy this month, the Tigers will win their division.

  55. Mike R

    July 31, 2007 at 4:49 pm

    T Smith: those numbers are also in the NL Central. Add at least a half a run for facing, you know, real lineups consistently around the American League.

    Also, I would have DFA’d Grilli and see if we could get something for him like the Braves who sent Ledezma and another pitcher to San Diego earlier for a pitcher I believe.

    Also, Gagne would not have waived his no-trade to come here because I’m not sure we were going to guarantee his $3.6 million bonus money and offer a better package to the Rangers.

    But, on top of that, there are rumors that the Red Sox will use Gagne as a duel closer with Papelbon. One gets one save opp. the other gets the next. A way to keep both fresh, innings down, and still maintain a lights-out bullpen with Delcarmen in the 7th, Okajima in the 8th, and those two in the 9th. Color me jealous.

  56. Mike R

    July 31, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    So it’s better to just wait and see with Rogers, Rodney and Zumaya? what if they don’t come back 1) at all or 2) do come back and suck. Then we’re left with a rotation of Bonderman and Verlander with Miller who can’t get out of the 5th, Robertson who’s velocity is down, a bullpen where Chad Durbin/Zach Miner are our 8th inning guys and an offense that is slowing down.

    A-mazing. I didn’t want to sell the farm, but I didn’t want to sit on our hands. At least make a play for David Weathers or something.

  57. Teymour

    July 31, 2007 at 4:52 pm

    We had scored almost a hundred more runs than the BoSox less than a month ago. Also, a little less than a month ago, we could rely on our starters to go 7+. I want to see us succeed as much as the rest of you, but remember what the White Sox did after winning their world series. Added a great 3 hitter in Thome (see Sheff). Their starters were taxed from the world series, began strong and faded as the season continued (see our starters). Their bullpen was innefective all season (see our bull pen). They went from being a pitching first team to an offense first team (see our team). The only difference is that we have Jimmy Leyland and DD calling the shots, and I have much more faith in those two than Ozzie and Kenny Williams. However, the Indians are close, the Yanks are only 4.5 games back, and Seattle can always creep up on us. Those of you who are content and confident are misguided. Is winning the WS impossible, of course not. Did it get any easier today– no. Any gaurantees to be a top flight contender next year, even with keeping our second tier prospects, Not sure ask the White Sox.

  58. Ryan

    July 31, 2007 at 5:02 pm

    The Pittsburgh Post Gazette says that the Jack Wilson deal definitely did not happen

  59. Erik in CA

    July 31, 2007 at 5:13 pm

    Thoughts on Lofton to Cleveland? That’s pretty much the story of the trade deadline for the Tigers, now that the Pirates deal fell through…

  60. Chris in Nashville

    July 31, 2007 at 5:15 pm

    I think Teymour would fall under the glass half-empty category….but he makes valid points. The thing is, I still think the Tigers are the best team in baseball. Could they have used Gagne? Sure. But it’s not worth giving up all they were asking for a rental player and a guy who hasn’t been 100% healthy in over 3 years. No other contender in the AL made a move…of any significance anyway. Every team has holes and ours has the best chance to fix itself from within. The Yankees aren’t going to get any more starting pitchers, the Indians still have pitching problems and the Mariners are going to fade because they are simply not on the same level as the other teams. The Angels still need some bats and the Red Sox picked up a closer, when they already had one. I think it ended up working out OK for us today, but still would have liked to see ONE move.

  61. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 5:20 pm

    Personally I think the right move is standing pat, given the market conditions for “top flight” relievers. Gagne and Dotel are no sure thing, given their consistency/injury problems in the past. Plus you get maybe 30 innings or so out of either guy for the remainder of the year. Do you give up Maybin/Miller for that? Texas wasn’t asking for Jurrjens or Trahern, they wanted top-flight prospects or guys who are ML-ready. They got Kason Gabbard, who looks by all accounts to be a very good prospect, and he helps now. Better than Jurrjens, not as talented as Miller. As for Dotel, Dayton Moore knows the Atlanta system extremely well, that was always an advantage for the Braves.

    After that, what were the alternatives? The price was just far too high to bear. Yeah, they are riding on some level of faith that Rodney and Zumaya can stay healthy and be effective down the stretch, but isn’t that the same issue with Dotel and Gagne? This way, you keep your prospects and go to war with the soldiers you have.

  62. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 5:26 pm

    Erik in CA:

    I don’t think the Lofton thing is a big deal, personally. He can spell Sizemore in center, obviously, and that keeps GRady fresh, which is key for them. But after that, he’s a bench player. He doesn’t have the power to play a corner outfield spot, and can’t throw besides. He’s not an upgrade over Jason Michaels, for example.

    He strikes me as a pinch-runner/pinch-hitter type off the bench in late innings. He can be useful in that role.

  63. Stephen

    July 31, 2007 at 5:27 pm

    I’m returning from my two-day ban now since i sent my offending Miner post from the West Coast where it was still sunday.
    The most important thing learned today: price for Dotel and Gagne nowhere near as high as everyone thought. It’s clear we could have got Dotel for a #4 to #7 prospect. Ok Gagne had no trade clause etc., they can be worked around but whatever. But not paying the entirely reasonable price for someone like Dotel is unfathomable. He’d be worth it if he only served as a set-up guy for the next few weeks. We got Rodney on a 15-pitch count in Toledo, Zumaya still up in the air, and Durbin(!) as our set-up guy? And we couldn’t pony up the price for Dotel?

  64. Kevin B.

    July 31, 2007 at 5:28 pm

    At least we still have first ballot hall of famer Cameron Maybin. No sense in improving a team this year that has world series potential, when you have him waiting in the wings.

  65. Ryan S

    July 31, 2007 at 5:31 pm

    Based on the deals that seem to have been most seriously talked about (Wilson and Farnsworth), I’m glad we did nothing.

    That’s not saying however, that I’m glad overall that they did nothing. It’s really disappointing that they didn’t take a run at a second tier reliever to help fill the void we face in the 7th/8th inning. I never expected us to get true closer, ala Gagne. That was going to cost too much. But a solid set up man would have been nice. Kyle J mentioned David Weathers. Someone like that I think could have provided a tangible upgrade.

    Oh well, I guess it’s hope and pray time for Rodney and Zumaya.

  66. Stephen

    July 31, 2007 at 5:34 pm

    Kyle Davies is career 14-21 6.15 ERA! And we couldn’t match that? I’m not going to argue Dotel is Cy Young, but if we blow 2-3 7th/8th inning leads over the rest of the season and we finish a game or two out remember the Tigers didn’t feel like a credible set-up man was worth a prospect on the caliber of Kyle ‘Freakin’ Davies.

  67. Kyle J

    July 31, 2007 at 5:36 pm

    I didn’t mention Weathers. Mike R did.

    Career stats: 4.33 ERA, 1.49 WHIP.

    The thing about relievers is that they’re subject to big fluctuations in performance due to a small annual sample size. And, with the exception of the top 20 guys, they’re not very good; that’s why they’re relievers. What we have right now is pretty representative of the middle 80 percent of big league relievers.

    I’ll be interested to see how Dotel pitches for the Braves down the stretch.

  68. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 5:42 pm


    Apparently teams stopped bidding on Dotel because the asking price was too high. When it broke that KC was willing to accept Davies, teams were falling all over themselves to get a better offer in. Apparently, Moore was content to deal with a farm system he knows very well. I am not sure a #4-#7 prospect could have gotten the deal done, when Clevlen, Vasquez and Jurrjens are those guys. If those guys are really that good and that coveted by other teams, do you trade them for a rental player with a history of ineffectiveness and arm trouble? Rodney already fits that bill. If those guys aren’t good enough to get KC to do the trade, do you continue to gut your farm system of potentially useful players?

    Kevin, As for Maybin, would you trade him for Jon Rauch? That’s what Jim Bowden wanted. Rauch has been excellent this year, and he’s been consistent for a couple years. Very affordable contract, and he’s only 27, with no history (that I’m aware of) of major injuries. He’s a good reliever, but I don’t think there’s any way you can make that deal, so how come you do for Gagne or Dotel?

    The Tigers farm system is top-heavy, with Maybin and Miller (still a prospect in many respects) and then a major dropoff. DD just didn’t have the chips, IMO.

  69. Walewander

    July 31, 2007 at 5:45 pm

    Kyle Davies is 23 with major league experience. I would imagine Moore thinks he’ll improve. Schuerholz is really going for it.

    As to our deadline, I’ll repeat what I said over at BTF:

    What a crappy deadline – the only positive is that we didn’t acquire Professor Farnsworth or Jack “White Ne!f!” Wilson.
    You know who else sucks? Ryan Minor! And we didn’t get him, either! Awesome!

  70. Stephen

    July 31, 2007 at 5:46 pm

    Mark, you seem to have more inside knowledge than I have, but to the question to you trade a #6 prospect for a now-healthy Dotel to help you win in 2007? Absolutely. We’re not talking the Red Sox trading Bagwell for a set-up lefty in the late eighties.

  71. Walewander

    July 31, 2007 at 5:59 pm

    Kenny Lofton: .306 .380 .437, 21 SB
    Trot Nixon: .253 .349 .349, 0 SB

    That’s a lot more than ‘bench player/pinch runner.’ The Indians made a significant upgrade.

  72. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 6:02 pm


    I’ve been on mlbtraderumors all day (slow day at the office), which is where I got that info. They got it either from Foxsports/ESPN/some other news outlet (I can’t find the link), and I completely agree it should be taken with a grain of salt.

    I’ve read anecdotally multiple times that Moore asked for Maybin and was told no. At the end of the day, we don’t know what DD offered, but if he offered Tata or de la Cruz (currently the #5 and #6 prospects, according to BA) would you do it? You might, but maybe Moore doesn’t want to because he knows Davies so much better.

    So I guess in theory, I agree with you on the level that for the right price, they should pull the trigger on a trade for Dotel. Maybin/Miller is not that price, maybe something like Tata or dlC is. But we can’t force Moore to pull the trigger too, and I think coming from the Atlanta system, he was going to be partial to dealing with them unless he got blown away. The only chips the Tigers have to blow somebody away are Maybin and Miller.

  73. Stephen

    July 31, 2007 at 6:03 pm

    A wise man once said the following:
    “If you have a chance to make a deal that you think will put you in the playoffs you do it. If that means sacrificing the future to a certain extent, that’s acceptable. Of course you make a trade that’s equitable, but don’t shy away from going for it.”

  74. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 6:08 pm

    Lofton has played 10 games in RF in his entire career, Grady 0. Trot has been terrible, but he’s the best RF they have. I really think they intend to use Kenny to spot Sizemore once Delucci comes back.

    According to ESPN:

    With David Dellucci on the disabled list and Trot Nixon slumping, Cleveland needed another outfielder. With Grady Sizemore set in center, Wedge plans to play Lofton in left, a spot he can only remember playing in an All-Star Game when he and Ken Griffey Jr. took turns playing center and left.

  75. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 6:13 pm

    I agree with your sentiment completely, Stephen, but the key there is whether the trade is equitable. I can get on board with dlC or Tata as part of a deal (which is true to the point you made) but again I would point out that the other guy involved might not think that’s enough. Neither of those guys has the big league experience that Davies has. That could have been a major factor. I think you come back to the fact that he wanted to deal with Atlanta unless he was blown away.

    I don’t think Miller/Maybin for Dotel is equitable.

  76. billfer

    July 31, 2007 at 6:19 pm

    Stephen – To echo Mark’s sentiments I would be really disappointed if the Tigers had the chance to get Dotel straight up for a Trahern/Larish type player and didn’t pull the trigger. Even I would have been okay with that price. But was that deal available to the Tigers? I have no idea. Moore knows Davies and it may not have been a matter of taking a 4-7 prospect, it may have been a matter of getting Davies.

    And for the record everyone, that was a self imposed ban by Stephen. I didn’t ban him at all.

  77. Stephen

    July 31, 2007 at 6:20 pm

    I hear you Mark, it’s just frustrating–whether Dotel or someone else–that pitchers moved and we didn’t get one to fill a void. Later guys, back to work before I end up designated for assignment.

  78. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    Is it possible Moore doesn’t trust his scouts, which is why he was willing to take Davies from Atlanta?

    Does he know something about Davies nobody else does?

    Was Schuerholz just helping out a buddy?

    Possibilities abound…

  79. Stephen

    July 31, 2007 at 6:22 pm

    No, sorry to give impression I’d been banned by our always maganimous host. Self-ban was invoked when I realized that i was taking baseball a little too seriously and it was compromising my humanity.

  80. Mark in Chicago

    July 31, 2007 at 6:25 pm

    Well put, Billfer.

    And it’s frustrating for all of us, Stephen. Here’s to a healthy Rodney and Zumaya, because they are certainly going to need them.

  81. Walewander

    July 31, 2007 at 6:33 pm

    I’d be surprised if Lofton doesn’t start in LF for the rest of the year, but I guess we’ll see.

  82. Jeff

    July 31, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    *** We had scored almost a hundred more runs than the BoSox less than a month ago. ***

    Incorrect. The Tigers had outscored the Bosox by 79 runs at the start of this month and now have outscored them by 68 runs. The Tigers have a better offense than Boston and it’s not even close.

  83. Mike R

    July 31, 2007 at 7:01 pm

    1) Kason Gabbard, at best, is a middle of the rotation guy. More likely, he’s a back end of the rotation guy. Boston dealt him at his peak. Hm, sounds like something that should’ve happened to a certain LFer in December (I’m looking squarely at you Dave Dombrowski and Craig Monroe).

    2) Dayton Moore took Kyle Davies because he has a love affair for him that is just unexplainable. He sees something that’s not shown through yet, but he’s just 23.

    3) We could’ve beaten that package to Texas with our pitchers. Trahern is an extreme GB pitcher, ideal for that band box. Guys like Eulogio de la Cruz could’ve been offered and the toolsy Gorkys Hernandez. Anyone except for Maybin. The catch is, Gagne wouldn’t waive his no trade clause to come to Detroit like he was willing to do for the Red Sox.

    4) Can we give a collective “thank god” that we didn’t trade for Jack Wilson? Thank God.

    5) Kenny Lofton will be a very good platoon player in LF. Jason Michaels isn’t anything to write home about and Lofton can still hit for average, get on base, and, more importantly, steal bases. He’s no CFer anymore, nor should he be asked to be one.

    6) I am amazed at how much John Daniels revamped the youth of that organization. Well done to him.

    7) I wonder what the Reds were asking for David Weathers. Even he would’ve worked for me.

  84. KS

    July 31, 2007 at 9:26 pm

    If the cost of Gagne was Maybin then I’m incredibly relieved nothing happened. I know there are some that think when you’ve got a shot at a ring, you need to take it. To me that’s short sighted. And maybe….I don’t want to think of going back to the days not long ago when our season was over at the end of April. I’d like a nice stretch like we had from the late 70’s to late 80’s of pretty good, to very good baseball. The big difference now is….we’re in the AL Central as opposed to a 7 team AL East. A pretty good, to very good team has a shot to win the AL Central each and every year. Get in the playoffs and all bets are off. If…and I know it’s a big if, Rodney and Zumaya are healthy, a guy like Dotel isn’t really an upgrade. But throwing away your future on oft-injured, inconsistent bullpen pieces isn’t my idea of a sure way to secure a pennant. We’re in a good spot for once, when much of the team ages, we’ll still have Bonderman, Verlander, Miller, Porcello (hopefully), Zumaya, Granderson, and Maybin to build around. It’s nice to be able to look forward with a bit of confidence.