Comments on: Game 103: Tigers at Angels http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: Ryan http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61704 Ryan Sun, 29 Jul 2007 22:30:46 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61704 Detroit News reports Kenny is on the 15 day DL and Tata has been tapped to take at least his next start. I guess the baseball gods felt the Tigers still needed a little more hate. Detroit News reports Kenny is on the 15 day DL and Tata has been tapped to take at least his next start. I guess the baseball gods felt the Tigers still needed a little more hate.

]]> By: Jim http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61702 Jim Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:29:18 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61702 btw I love this place. Outside of here I have no one else to talk to intelligently about baseball besides my father. btw I love this place. Outside of here I have no one else to talk to intelligently about baseball besides my father.

]]> By: Jim http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61701 Jim Sun, 29 Jul 2007 21:28:18 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61701 Mike R: I like what James has done too. After reading Dollar Sign on The Muscle and Moneyball among other stuff I hate the way back in the day a player was more highly thought of based on his "face" Blech. Kathy: Cool article :) Mike R:

I like what James has done too. After reading Dollar Sign on The Muscle and Moneyball among other stuff I hate the way back in the day a player was more highly thought of based on his “face” Blech.

Kathy:

Cool article :)

]]> By: Lurker http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61698 Lurker Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:33:29 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61698 Actually,using a sample of 2 to reach a conclusion about fingers and pitch counts,it looks like someone needs to learn to start by learning something about statistics.Or satire. Otherwise,warning taken to heart,Bilfer. Actually,using a sample of 2 to reach a conclusion about fingers and pitch counts,it looks like someone needs to learn to start by learning something about statistics.Or satire.
Otherwise,warning taken to heart,Bilfer.

]]> By: Musa D http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61697 Musa D Sun, 29 Jul 2007 19:17:38 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61697 Actually, using Mordecai Brown and Antonio Alfonseca as a sample, it appears that, in fact, a higher number of fingers on a pitcher's throwing hand correlates to a lower pitch count! Look like someone else needs to learn to start with research! Oh, wait.... Actually, using Mordecai Brown and Antonio Alfonseca as a sample, it appears that, in fact, a higher number of fingers on a pitcher’s throwing hand correlates to a lower pitch count!

Look like someone else needs to learn to start with research!

Oh, wait….

]]> By: Jeff http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61695 Jeff Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:58:29 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61695 Now that Bill James' name has been brought up, it's important to note that James isn't as focused on the pitch count issue as some analysts are. Of course pitch counts matter, it's clear that pitchers get worn down in individual games and over seasons. But I think the BP approach that you calculate "pitcher abuse points" based on (x - 100) ^ 3 is too cute a formula by far. Isn't it remarkable that the threshold just happens to be 100? I guess if we all had 11 fingers the threshold would be 121. Cubing the difference from 100 looks to me to overstate things. That means that once you've gotten to 110 pitches, throwing 3 more pitches doubles the total amount of stress on your arm FOR THE ENTIRE GAME. That doesn't mean throwing 120 pitches game in and game out is a good idea, just that the way the impact is calculated in the SABR world is overstated. Now that Bill James’ name has been brought up, it’s important to note that James isn’t as focused on the pitch count issue as some analysts are. Of course pitch counts matter, it’s clear that pitchers get worn down in individual games and over seasons.

But I think the BP approach that you calculate “pitcher abuse points” based on (x – 100) ^ 3 is too cute a formula by far. Isn’t it remarkable that the threshold just happens to be 100? I guess if we all had 11 fingers the threshold would be 121.

Cubing the difference from 100 looks to me to overstate things. That means that once you’ve gotten to 110 pitches, throwing 3 more pitches doubles the total amount of stress on your arm FOR THE ENTIRE GAME.

That doesn’t mean throwing 120 pitches game in and game out is a good idea, just that the way the impact is calculated in the SABR world is overstated.

]]> By: billfer http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61694 billfer Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:50:34 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61694 Lurker - Not cool. First and last warning. Lurker -

Not cool. First and last warning.

]]> By: T Smith http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61693 T Smith Sun, 29 Jul 2007 16:15:44 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61693 Thanks, Kurt. I remember now. Thanks, Kurt. I remember now.

]]> By: T Smith http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61692 T Smith Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:51:02 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61692 Lurker: Point taken. The way I read your post it seemed like you were implying the trend stemmed from the days Cobb, Ruth, and Koufax, when in reality, a "couple" decades probably best describes the trend. At the end of the day, though, it would appear we're talking about the same time frame. Lurker:

Point taken. The way I read your post it seemed like you were implying the trend stemmed from the days Cobb, Ruth, and Koufax, when in reality, a “couple” decades probably best describes the trend. At the end of the day, though, it would appear we’re talking about the same time frame.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61691 Kathy Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:45:14 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61691 Gee thanks, Lurker. And, yes, I was a cheerleader...captain of the cheerleaders. Gee thanks, Lurker. And, yes, I was a cheerleader…captain of the cheerleaders.

]]> By: Lurker http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61690 Lurker Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:35:38 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61690 I salute you,Kathy.Hopefully you have discovered it is better to 1)research,conclude,argue than to 2)conclude,argue,research. I salute you,Kathy.Hopefully you have discovered it is better to 1)research,conclude,argue than to 2)conclude,argue,research.

]]> By: Kathy http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61689 Kathy Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:22:29 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61689 Here's a great article from Baseball Prospectus regarding pitch count and young pitchers that explains a few things we were discussing: http://www.baseballprospectus.com/article.php?articleid=2633 Here’s a great article from Baseball Prospectus regarding pitch count and young pitchers that explains a few things we were discussing:

http://www.baseballprospectus......cleid=2633

]]> By: Lurker http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61688 Lurker Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:22:24 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61688 Thank you for supporting what I said by citing evidence from 'decades' ago.There was no switch that was flipped in 1997.The game has evolved,or,if you like,trended in that direction. Thank you for supporting what I said by citing evidence from ‘decades’ ago.There was no switch that was flipped in 1997.The game has evolved,or,if you like,trended in that direction.

]]> By: Kurt http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61687 Kurt Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:22:18 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61687 T Smith, he said that in reference to Justin Verlander having a ceiling on his innings last year. Could be that double-D asked him to keep pitch counts and innings down because he wanted everyone to stay healthy. Although with Verlander hitting 200 innngs last year, it sorta seems to be Leyland's viewpoint won out. T Smith, he said that in reference to Justin Verlander having a ceiling on his innings last year. Could be that double-D asked him to keep pitch counts and innings down because he wanted everyone to stay healthy. Although with Verlander hitting 200 innngs last year, it sorta seems to be Leyland’s viewpoint won out.

]]> By: T Smith http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61686 T Smith Sun, 29 Jul 2007 15:16:03 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/07/game-103-tigers-at-angels/#comment-61686 Lurker: I wouldn't say "decades long trends" Actually the idea of limiting a pitcher to 100 pitches or so is rather novel relative to the history of the sport. In the early 1970s, most managers didn't go by pitch counts at all. In the 1980s many many pitchers pitches well over 125 pitches a game. In fact, prior to Steve Busey's infamous rotator cuff tear (he threw 200 pitches many times in the early seventies) the idea of pitch count hadn't even taken off. Lurker:

I wouldn’t say “decades long trends” Actually the idea of limiting a pitcher to 100 pitches or so is rather novel relative to the history of the sport. In the early 1970s, most managers didn’t go by pitch counts at all. In the 1980s many many pitchers pitches well over 125 pitches a game.

In fact, prior to Steve Busey’s infamous rotator cuff tear (he threw 200 pitches many times in the early seventies) the idea of pitch count hadn’t even taken off.

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