Comments on: More on first pitch swinging – runners on base http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/ News, views, and analysis on the Detroit Tigers and baseball Fri, 10 Feb 2012 20:06:14 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3 By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Even More First Pitch Swinging - Starters vs Relievers http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-75512 The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » Even More First Pitch Swinging - Starters vs Relievers Tue, 08 Jan 2008 12:50:34 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-75512 [...] The information used here was obtained free of charge from and is copyrighted by Retrosheet. Interested parties may contact Retrosheet at www.retrosheet.org. - For the sake of completeness, here are the links to the other 2 articles done here: First Pitch Swinging and More on First Pitch Swinging - Runners on Base [...] [...] The information used here was obtained free of charge from and is copyrighted by Retrosheet. Interested parties may contact Retrosheet at http://www.retrosheet.org. – For the sake of completeness, here are the links to the other 2 articles done here: First Pitch Swinging and More on First Pitch Swinging – Runners on Base [...]

]]> By: The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » First pitch swinging http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-71173 The Detroit Tiger Weblog » Blog Archive » First pitch swinging Fri, 28 Sep 2007 14:17:33 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-71173 [...] for Tots BaseBlogging « Tigers sign Timo Perez, Bobby Seay More on first pitch swinging - runners on base » First pitch swinging January 7th, 2007 | | Print this post | Email this post | hype it [...] [...] for Tots BaseBlogging « Tigers sign Timo Perez, Bobby Seay More on first pitch swinging – runners on base » First pitch swinging January 7th, 2007 | | Print this post | Email this post | hype it [...]

]]> By: David http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-46105 David Tue, 09 Jan 2007 09:50:53 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-46105 Well it appears that many of the most "patient hitters" were also the ones who struck out the most, and it is hard to have one without the other. Here are the top 10 walks leaders in the AL and added is the # of times they struck out BB K 1) David Ortiz 119 117 2) Jason Giambi 110 106 3) Jim Thome 107 147 4) Travis Hafner 100 111 5) Manny Ramirez 100 102 6) Nick Swisher 97 152 7) Kevin Youkilis 91 120 8) Alex Rodriguez 90 139 9) Mark Teixeira 89 128 10) Troy Glaus 86 134 (sorry they aren't exactly lined up) anyways only 2 players in the top 50 that I see have a sizeable more # of walks than K's Joe Mauer(79walks and 54K's) and Frank Catalanotto (52BB, 37K's) thats it The only thing this date can suggest is that the most "patient hitters" also strike out the most. Everyone on that list with the exclusion of Kevin hit 33 or more Hrs and most are the top hitters of their respective teams, so the walk rate might be more of a combonation and suggestive of a pitchers repeatedly pitching around them and the strikeout rate reflective of their "all or nothing" philosophy that the Babe and many other prolific sluggers used. I know this might not be exactly on topic, but I think you have to study the entire at-bat rather than focusing on the first pitch. Maybe I'm way off but I think Leyland put it best when he was talking about Grandy in mid-August "From what I've seen, he has to get better at hitting hittable pitches" 4 words good contact, good eye Well it appears that many of the most “patient hitters” were also the ones who struck out the most, and it is hard to have one without the other.

Here are the top 10 walks leaders in the AL and added is the # of times they struck out

BB K
1) David Ortiz 119 117
2) Jason Giambi 110 106
3) Jim Thome 107 147
4) Travis Hafner 100 111
5) Manny Ramirez 100 102
6) Nick Swisher 97 152
7) Kevin Youkilis 91 120
8) Alex Rodriguez 90 139
9) Mark Teixeira 89 128
10) Troy Glaus 86 134
(sorry they aren’t exactly lined up)

anyways only 2 players in the top 50 that I see have a sizeable more # of walks than K’s Joe Mauer(79walks and 54K’s) and Frank Catalanotto (52BB, 37K’s) thats it

The only thing this date can suggest is that the most “patient hitters” also strike out the most. Everyone on that list with the exclusion of Kevin hit 33 or more Hrs and most are the top hitters of their respective teams, so the walk rate might be more of a combonation and suggestive of a pitchers repeatedly pitching around them and the strikeout rate reflective of their “all or nothing” philosophy that the Babe and many other prolific sluggers used.

I know this might not be exactly on topic, but I think you have to study the entire at-bat rather than focusing on the first pitch.

Maybe I’m way off but I think Leyland put it best when he was talking about Grandy in mid-August “From what I’ve seen, he has to get better at hitting hittable pitches”

4 words
good contact, good eye

]]> By: billfer http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-46030 billfer Tue, 09 Jan 2007 04:28:36 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-46030 Kyle - I'd like to do the whole league, or even multiple seasons to gain some real insight. Unfortunately you're right in that the time is prohibitive for me right now. It's something I may pursue further and actually draw some conclusions from. As it stands now, there is no predictive or strategic value in the data, it is simply a reflection of what happened. Kyle – I’d like to do the whole league, or even multiple seasons to gain some real insight. Unfortunately you’re right in that the time is prohibitive for me right now. It’s something I may pursue further and actually draw some conclusions from. As it stands now, there is no predictive or strategic value in the data, it is simply a reflection of what happened.

]]> By: Tim D http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45989 Tim D Tue, 09 Jan 2007 01:14:29 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45989 Also we now have both Timo and Neifi Perez. We cannot be stopped! The first pitch swinging doesn't bother me so much when it is a guy who can hit it out. Not Neifi. Also we now have both Timo and Neifi Perez. We cannot be stopped!

The first pitch swinging doesn’t bother me so much when it is a guy who can hit it out. Not Neifi.

]]> By: Tim D http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45985 Tim D Tue, 09 Jan 2007 01:11:29 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45985 This late but did you see that Lynn Henning thinks Andre Dawson is more of a HOFr than Trammell? I like Henning a lot but I sent him a piece of my mind on this. This late but did you see that Lynn Henning thinks Andre Dawson is more of a HOFr than Trammell? I like Henning a lot but I sent him a piece of my mind on this.

]]> By: Kyle J http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45976 Kyle J Tue, 09 Jan 2007 00:19:52 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45976 Great stuff in these two posts, Bilfer. I think we'd all agree with Rings that swinging at hittable first pitches is the key. The data would seem to indicate that the Tigers, on balance, swing at more hittable first pitches than tough pitches. Also, it's important to keep in mind we're talking about pitches traveling 75 to 100 MPH. Some times the batter is going to think he's swinging at a hittable pitch and it turns out not to be not so hittable. We may think the Tigers do this more than other teams just because most of us watch a lot more Tiger at bats than at bats for other teams. The amount of work involved is probably prohibitive, but it would be interesting to know how the Tigers' performance swinging and not swinging at first pitches compared with the rest of the league. I.E., Were they worse or better than average at identifying hittable first pitches to swing at? Great stuff in these two posts, Bilfer. I think we’d all agree with Rings that swinging at hittable first pitches is the key. The data would seem to indicate that the Tigers, on balance, swing at more hittable first pitches than tough pitches.

Also, it’s important to keep in mind we’re talking about pitches traveling 75 to 100 MPH. Some times the batter is going to think he’s swinging at a hittable pitch and it turns out not to be not so hittable. We may think the Tigers do this more than other teams just because most of us watch a lot more Tiger at bats than at bats for other teams.

The amount of work involved is probably prohibitive, but it would be interesting to know how the Tigers’ performance swinging and not swinging at first pitches compared with the rest of the league. I.E., Were they worse or better than average at identifying hittable first pitches to swing at?

]]> By: Rings http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45957 Rings Mon, 08 Jan 2007 20:13:09 +0000 http://www.detroittigersweblog.com/2007/01/more-on-first-pitch-swinging-runners-on-base/#comment-45957 Interesting stuff. I don't know if there's a statistical way to research this, but the problem that many of us have, is not that they swing at the first pitch (which can often be a good offering), but it's what type of pitch is offered upon and what's the situation: to wit, the Ordonez example has been infuriorating when he hacks at a first pitch <i>down</i> in the zone and grounds into a DP, as happened twice during the playoff run. It's anecdotal, of course, but still not what one would hope for from their experienced cleanup man. Many other playoff situations begged for someone to shorten up and <i>just put a ball in play</i> (Inge, many occasions) to move or score a runner. The beauty of baseball, is that there's no end to the variety of situations (which, unfortunately, cannot all be measured statistically). Interesting stuff.
I don’t know if there’s a statistical way to research this, but the problem that many of us have, is not that they swing at the first pitch (which can often be a good offering), but it’s what type of pitch is offered upon and what’s the situation: to wit, the Ordonez example has been infuriorating when he hacks at a first pitch down in the zone and grounds into a DP, as happened twice during the playoff run. It’s anecdotal, of course, but still not what one would hope for from their experienced cleanup man. Many other playoff situations begged for someone to shorten up and just put a ball in play (Inge, many occasions) to move or score a runner.
The beauty of baseball, is that there’s no end to the variety of situations (which, unfortunately, cannot all be measured statistically).

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